Listen man I know I’m edging pretty close to “no true Scotsman,” but hear me out… it’s not that it wasn’t “true socialism,” but whether something is socialist economically isn’t necessarily tied to authoritarianism. Like, fuck tankies, but also I do think that combining market economics and truly representative democracy with proportional representation and freedom of speech and association with socialist ownership structures (as in the abolition of corporate governance from any input from, frankly, absentee “owners”) is the move. Socialism doesn’t have to be authoritarian, nor does it have to be against market economics. Ya know?
That’s true, but i don’t know if it’s fair to say that mandating employee ownership is anything other than socialist. Not Marxist, sure. Certainly leftist. But isn’t employee ownership and governance of the means of production, by definition, socialism?
Ah I see. I definitely have more learning to do than. In that case how is libertarian socialism socialism? Doesn’t that definition invalidate basically everything but vanguardism?
Oh I definitely think my position is more informed by anarchist traditions (eg, see my username lol) than socialist traditions, but it’s not exactly anarchism either. I’m never really sure what label to use tbh.
yeah I keep hearing how we’re a democracy but I’ve never felt it ever was. We have the technology to do a direct democracy but no one really wants to do it.
In that case we’d say “X can’t exist”, not “X is Y”. That’s the case for the word utopia, for example. Also non-state capitalism socialism exists and includes for instance the Paris Commune, anarchist Ukraine and for a surviving example Rojava.
It’s the most left of the right-wing scope that is pro-capitalism, but doesn’t address the underlying contradiction and will inevitably backslide to the right. It’ll take longer, but will eventually side with fascism as capitalism historically does
I’m referring more to as a Mode of Production, where the Socialist Mode is the democratic organization of the workers who together control all aspects of the business such as wages and investment. Richard Wolff explains it well. Socialism doesn’t mean exclusively using central planning or centralization of power.
The contradictions I’m talking about are between the workers and the capitalist owners. That exists whether the capitalism is state or private, and whether the capitalism is laissez-faire or social democracy.
That contradiction will always lead to the capitalists accumulating wealth and using that wealth to improve the mechanisms of which they are able to accumulate wealth. High taxation, while an improvement over laissez-faire, does not change that reality. Wealth will still be accumulated by capitalists, who will then use that wealth to change the laws for their benefit. Democracy will backslide as corporate influence grows year over year. We see this backsliding all over Europe to various degrees, despite them having significantly more social safety nets than America. There is no type of capitalism that won’t lead to Fascism.
China is a mix of capitalism and socialism. Richard Wolff also explains this well. It doesn’t matter if they claim to be communist or not, or if they claim to be on that path or not, the current system is a mix
No, I’m talking about Modes of Production. I linked videos explaining it more in depth for a reason.
A workers cooperative is using a socialist mode of production to organize and run a private business.
You didn’t provide what the contradictions of the socialist mode of production are. You gave critiques of planned economy and authoritarianism.
The contradiction of a capitalist mode of production is between the owner, who wants to maximize exploitation, and the workers, who want to minimize their exploitation. A socialist mode of production makes a democratic organization of all the workers replace that capitalist owner. The workers are in full control. There is no contradiction between the owner and workers because the workers are now also the owners.
I recommend reading the deluzian criticism of dialectics.
This is about philosophy, not a critique of marxian economics or dielectical materialism
If we can’t agree on the definitions of Capitalism and Socialism, then we can’t really have a conversation. I provided the videos by Richard Wolff so that the definitions being used are clear.
Those aren’t contradictory. Centralized planning refers to organizing aspects of the economy, in particular things with inelastic demand, through the government (the public sector). It’s run as a business, same as in the private sector, except profit is not the point. It can be organized based on a capitalist mode or a socialist mode. If it’s organized in a socialist mode, the entire body of workers have a say in the process of the central planning.
Centralized planning is critical for inelastic demand, such as housing, healthcare, and for the most part food. It is not a replacement of markets, it is supplementing them to ensure basic necessities are available to everyone. The private market can still exist just fine, it’s the organization within the companies that change. The ratio of public to private, and planned economy to market economy, depends on a significant amount of factors, internal and external.
You fundamentally misunderstanding capitalism if that’s what you think.
Profit exists in both modes of production. The difference is that in a capitalist mode, workers are over-exploited to maximize profit for the owner. In a socialist mode, workers are not over-exploited and the profit is shared between the workers. In a capitalist mode, increasing profits are prioritized above all else, while wages are minimized as much as possible. In a socialist mode, workers decided democratically how much to put towards their wages and how much to reinvest back into the business; increasing profits year over year is not the priority, the well-being of the workers and business is.
I don’t see psychology, sociology etc. as something separate to nature. They are part it of it, because they are aspects of us humans, and we are part of nature.
None of these things are true, yet we build systems assuming they are.
Agreed. Or perhaps I’d say some of us build systems using those unrealistic abstractions as excuses for oppression and extractivism.
I don’t think fact that those approaches have been dominant for centuries (millenia in a few locations) means that they are the only approach. It seems that, given we have the ability to reflect on those and realise how unrealistic they are, now would be a good time to try building systems that are NOT based on unrealistic assumptions.
And yes, I realise we’ll never have a perfect understanding of our place in the world, and there will always be flawed assumptions of varying degrees of importance underlying our world view. But we can absolutely do better, and a perfect place to start would be to avoid the assumptions that we’ve just spent a long time testing and found to be untrue.
Welfare capitalism was better than the other ones.
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Listen man I know I’m edging pretty close to “no true Scotsman,” but hear me out… it’s not that it wasn’t “true socialism,” but whether something is socialist economically isn’t necessarily tied to authoritarianism. Like, fuck tankies, but also I do think that combining market economics and truly representative democracy with proportional representation and freedom of speech and association with socialist ownership structures (as in the abolition of corporate governance from any input from, frankly, absentee “owners”) is the move. Socialism doesn’t have to be authoritarian, nor does it have to be against market economics. Ya know?
I got a death threat from a tankie today because I suggested that Kamala would have not been as bad as the current administration.
That was fun, don’t worry I was banned shortly thereafter from that community
Accelerationism is a hell of a drug. You would have thought they would learn something from Weimar Germany, but no.
Was it that six-sided ursine one…?
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That’s true, but i don’t know if it’s fair to say that mandating employee ownership is anything other than socialist. Not Marxist, sure. Certainly leftist. But isn’t employee ownership and governance of the means of production, by definition, socialism?
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I think your argument might be more convincing if you actually mentioned these elements.
Other people had other definitions even before Marx, so I’m not sure why his should be the only valid definition.
Just my two cents.
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Ah I see. I definitely have more learning to do than. In that case how is libertarian socialism socialism? Doesn’t that definition invalidate basically everything but vanguardism?
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Oh I definitely think my position is more informed by anarchist traditions (eg, see my username lol) than socialist traditions, but it’s not exactly anarchism either. I’m never really sure what label to use tbh.
yeah I keep hearing how we’re a democracy but I’ve never felt it ever was. We have the technology to do a direct democracy but no one really wants to do it.
I mean state capitalism is by definition not communism. This isn’t a no true Scotsman they’re just two different things.
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In that case we’d say “X can’t exist”, not “X is Y”. That’s the case for the word utopia, for example. Also non-state capitalism socialism exists and includes for instance the Paris Commune, anarchist Ukraine and for a surviving example Rojava.
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Because it’s half way to socialism?
It’s the most left of the right-wing scope that is pro-capitalism, but doesn’t address the underlying contradiction and will inevitably backslide to the right. It’ll take longer, but will eventually side with fascism as capitalism historically does
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I’m referring more to as a Mode of Production, where the Socialist Mode is the democratic organization of the workers who together control all aspects of the business such as wages and investment. Richard Wolff explains it well. Socialism doesn’t mean exclusively using central planning or centralization of power.
The contradictions I’m talking about are between the workers and the capitalist owners. That exists whether the capitalism is state or private, and whether the capitalism is laissez-faire or social democracy.
That contradiction will always lead to the capitalists accumulating wealth and using that wealth to improve the mechanisms of which they are able to accumulate wealth. High taxation, while an improvement over laissez-faire, does not change that reality. Wealth will still be accumulated by capitalists, who will then use that wealth to change the laws for their benefit. Democracy will backslide as corporate influence grows year over year. We see this backsliding all over Europe to various degrees, despite them having significantly more social safety nets than America. There is no type of capitalism that won’t lead to Fascism.
China is a mix of capitalism and socialism. Richard Wolff also explains this well. It doesn’t matter if they claim to be communist or not, or if they claim to be on that path or not, the current system is a mix
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No, I’m talking about Modes of Production. I linked videos explaining it more in depth for a reason.
A workers cooperative is using a socialist mode of production to organize and run a private business.
You didn’t provide what the contradictions of the socialist mode of production are. You gave critiques of planned economy and authoritarianism.
The contradiction of a capitalist mode of production is between the owner, who wants to maximize exploitation, and the workers, who want to minimize their exploitation. A socialist mode of production makes a democratic organization of all the workers replace that capitalist owner. The workers are in full control. There is no contradiction between the owner and workers because the workers are now also the owners.
This is about philosophy, not a critique of marxian economics or dielectical materialism
If we can’t agree on the definitions of Capitalism and Socialism, then we can’t really have a conversation. I provided the videos by Richard Wolff so that the definitions being used are clear.
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Those aren’t contradictory. Centralized planning refers to organizing aspects of the economy, in particular things with inelastic demand, through the government (the public sector). It’s run as a business, same as in the private sector, except profit is not the point. It can be organized based on a capitalist mode or a socialist mode. If it’s organized in a socialist mode, the entire body of workers have a say in the process of the central planning.
Centralized planning is critical for inelastic demand, such as housing, healthcare, and for the most part food. It is not a replacement of markets, it is supplementing them to ensure basic necessities are available to everyone. The private market can still exist just fine, it’s the organization within the companies that change. The ratio of public to private, and planned economy to market economy, depends on a significant amount of factors, internal and external.
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You fundamentally misunderstanding capitalism if that’s what you think.
Profit exists in both modes of production. The difference is that in a capitalist mode, workers are over-exploited to maximize profit for the owner. In a socialist mode, workers are not over-exploited and the profit is shared between the workers. In a capitalist mode, increasing profits are prioritized above all else, while wages are minimized as much as possible. In a socialist mode, workers decided democratically how much to put towards their wages and how much to reinvest back into the business; increasing profits year over year is not the priority, the well-being of the workers and business is.
What about bioregionalism? A system that is designed primarily around fitting in to nature, instead of trying to manipulate it?
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I don’t see psychology, sociology etc. as something separate to nature. They are part it of it, because they are aspects of us humans, and we are part of nature.
Agreed. Or perhaps I’d say some of us build systems using those unrealistic abstractions as excuses for oppression and extractivism.
I don’t think fact that those approaches have been dominant for centuries (millenia in a few locations) means that they are the only approach. It seems that, given we have the ability to reflect on those and realise how unrealistic they are, now would be a good time to try building systems that are NOT based on unrealistic assumptions.
And yes, I realise we’ll never have a perfect understanding of our place in the world, and there will always be flawed assumptions of varying degrees of importance underlying our world view. But we can absolutely do better, and a perfect place to start would be to avoid the assumptions that we’ve just spent a long time testing and found to be untrue.
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It is already socialism by definition. It just isn’t an eastern dictatorship.