Meanwhile most people: the answer to who is the bad guy is:
Both. Both is good
Ah yes, the millions of innocent palestianians that had their homeland taken from them and are now being bombed are literally just ask guilty as the people doing the invading and bombing. Very enlightened take.
The problem with saying “both” is that there are 5 groups involved, maybe even 6.
- The Israeli government
- The Israeli people
- The West Bank Palestinian government (Fatah)
- The Gaza Strip Palestinian government (Hamas)
- The Palestinian people (arguably separate groups to account for differing levels of suffering and oppression)
I’d agree that “both” are bad if you mean the Israeli government and Hamas, though to different degrees at different times. I’d agree “both” are victims if you mean the Israeli and Palestinian peoples, though undoubtedly the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are the most victimized right now and in general.
Ah sorry, just made a comment outlining the parties that I am talking about lol, clearly stating it’s Hamas and the Israeli government
Do you also make this distinction between the government of nazi germany and the citizens of nazi germany?
Absolutely.
Yeah, don’t you? Same with every other government. They are rarely a good representation of their people.
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My take is very simple:
-are they actively targeting civilians? If yes then bad:
-Israeli government- yes, then bad. -Hamas- yes, then bad.-are they following what is recognised as international law (namely the 1993 Oslo agreements):
-Israeli government- while they formally recognise Palestine as a state, they have consistently undermined the Palestinian authority and occupied much of the West Bank without a plan for either self governance or leaving, settling parts of the West Bank aggressively, therefore bad. -Hamas- does not recognise Israel in any way and openly calls for its destruction, therefore bad.I don’t think Hamas soldiers are usually in uniform and Hamas bases don’t have signs saying “Hamas military base” on them. They couldn’t exist if they were easily distinguishable from civilians. Naturally Israel abuses this natural opposition to their oppression by escalating the oppression.
They are essentially a state (as they do control Gaza with state powers) and as such, they must abide by the rules of war just like any other
Not how the Geneva Conventions work but okay
I think the only reason Israel should exist today is that people already live there and it would be a mistake to force them out and create more displacement. That being said, Israel, a supremacist ethnostate, should never have had the right to exist… You shouldn’t exist if you have to build your fucking country on the mass graves of the native people, and then you are so deep in this shit you have to develop tech to be able to apartheid them all behind walls and systems and bullets, starving and dying. No, an entity like that should not deserve to exist. I still have hope that some reasonable Israelis will turn this all around, and Israel will stop being a genocidal mission.
You shouldn’t exist if you have to build your fucking country on the mass graves of the native people
So where do you draw the line? Most - if not all - countries were created with bloodshed at some point. People in my country moved into the area around ~1200 years ago and I don’t think the locals welcomed the new inhabitants with open arms. So should we move back then? What about the people who now line in the place we (at least assume) to had come from?
So should we move back then?
Read the first sentence of the comment you just replied to.
Yeah, but at that point you just rant how all these states should disappear without any idea what to do with the people in them.
Hmmmm, sounds to me like you ignored my first sentence. Read it again. I don’t think they should go anywhere. Doesn’t make what they did right though.
For Israeli settlers, there is still a window of time to kick them the fuck out given as to how they go into people’s homes with the blessings of Israeli police and IDF and kick the residents out…
The country Israel was founded by people who are native to the land. Perhaps read up on the history of the area, because what you are writing is factually incorrect.
There was no country before and the area was populated by multiple different groups of people. Those people wanted to found countries in the area. There is war(s) regarding where the borders of these countries should be.
That’s how almost every country in the world came into place. The only difference here is that it is taking place in a time when the whole world is watching in real time and people are much more globally mobile.
I know it’s much easier and comfortable to paint a black and white picture of the situation, but it is just false…
If they were native to the land, how do you explain Deir Yasdin or the Nakba?
??? What does that have to do with the fact that Israel is a country founded for people who are native to the land?
If they are native to the land, why did they have to massacre (Deir Yassin) and ethnically cleanse (the Nakba) the other natives? 🤔
I’m asking because Deir Yassin is the massacre that eventually convinced my grandmother’s family to leave their hometown and become refugees in Jordan, especially after the men in the village tried to fight off these “natives to the land” because they were attacking and killing everyone. Deir Yassin convinced Palestinians that they couldn’t trust these “natives”, since they don’t stick to their treaties, and go around marauding.
You shouldn’t exist if you have to build your fucking country on the mass graves of the native people, and then you are so deep in this shit you have to develop tech to be able to apartheid them all behind walls and systems and bullets, starving and dying. No, an entity like that should not deserve to exist.
Just for curiosity, are you American?
Because you literally just described America.
No. You’ll be shocked, I’m Palestinian.
For that you know awfully little about the history of the area. Or you just love propaganda.
Yeah I fucking love all that “propaganda” from HRW and the UN.
Because you literally just described America.
Given what you know about our species and nature in general, what country in the world do you think doesn’t fit this description?
Countries still standing, flying (mostly) their original flag, with a significant chunk of peak territory remaining?
Yeah, America isn’t unique. Lots throughout history. I guess you could say most of the new world, but certainly one of the largest…with Russia, China, Canada, and maybe Australia if you stretch the definition enough (and I’m not trying to ignore or dismiss their treatment of the aboriginals in saying that).
You missed actively using civilian infrastructure for military purpose, actively using civilians as shields, targeting of civilians, and hostage taking as international laws broken by Hamas.
Yes I know, I restricted myself fairly, but outlining war crimes committed by Hamas would’ve been too long a list. Namely, not properly identifying combatente
It’s funny because the IDF did all of this just last week. All those Palestinians illegally detained in unknown locations: they are hostages, in every practical sense of the word.
Straight up lies as usual. Don’t you get tired of making stuff up?
You’re right, they haven’t used anyone as a human shield yet after Israel had to make it illegal to do since it was a normal occurrence. Otherwise they did the rest it seems.
I support an elected government with secular state thank you
Does a historical claim hold weight over a long established later claim? No-one knows the answer to this one - how old must a claim be before it becomes invalid?
Are restrictive religious laws ok? I think the resounding answer is always “mine are, but theirs aren’t”, which really is just a recipe for war eternal. They never strike me as ok, because most of them focus on making a group of people “the other”.
Is murdering civilians to achieve military objectives ok? No, it isn’t, everyone knows that really - it’s an idea that belongs in the middle ages and should have been left there.
I don’t think I could join the Israel vs Palestine camps (both governments are shit - both are out for genocide), I think I prefer the camp filled with people who just want an end to the conflict, people who live on both sides of those ill defined borders.
What does everyone who matters (the people living through this hell) really want? They want their lives back, the ability to be themselves, and carry out their traditions undisturbed. Most of all, they want the killing and persecution to stop, and the time to mourn their losses.
How do we do that? Put the guns down, stop the bombardments and bombings, have each side treat the wounded of the other side, and then figure out the rest without starting the killing again.
Hamas isn’t a government, it’s a terrorist group. It’s also horrible to Palestinians and it undermines the actual government of Palestine, the Palestinian Authority. There was just an article posted to Lemmy that talked about how Likud (the far right party governing Israel that’s undermined peace talks multiple times) helped fund Hamas.
Oppressed people can’t “put their guns down” because they’re being exterminated. Only the oppressor can stop. If you’re really against both Hamas and Israel, then you believe that Israel needs to stop committing genocide. If you’re pretending “both sides” are equal, then you’re playing the same game Trump said when he equated people waving Nazi and confederate flags witj people trying not to be killed by people waving Nazi and confederate flags by saying “both sides are to blame.”
Pretending oppressed people have as much power as their oppressors is the game oppressors use to perpetuate their oppression.
Hamas isn’t a government, it’s a terrorist group. It’s also horrible to Palestinians and it undermines the actual government of Palestine, the Palestinian Authority.
The people of Gaza voted Hamas in, so Hamas is the actual government of Gaza. And also a terrorist organization.
You mean based on the election that happened 17 years ago? Considering the average age in Gaza is 18 it’s pretty likely the people who voted for Hamas aren’t even alive anymore.
You mean based on the election that happened 17 years ago?
Yes.
So you’re holding people accountable for something most of them never even had a say in?
Normally the people here are always saying it’s the obligation of the people to go against their evil government. Why not in this case? How many protests took place in Palestine against Hamas? Or against the violence they used against their own people?
You don’t think the near-permanent humanitarian crisis, half the population being children and Israel still effectively controlling Gaza gives Palestine the exception from the normality? Nothing is normal about Palestine so why should we treat them normally?
Normally the people here are always saying it’s the obligation of the people to go against their evil government.
There’s an evil government right next to the border ready to make their lives hell if they do that, and it’s people don’t give a fuck.
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Or, I’m looking at people rather than nations, which is the correct way to view any conflict.
My argument is that both sides put their guns down, because that’s how a war stops. Both sides treat the injured of the other side, since that is how empathy is built and denial is eliminated. Homes can be rebuilt, and land disagreements can be settled, but nothing will bring the dead back; there are some things that cannot be undone. These are the things we need to stop FIRST.
“POLARIZATION: Extremists drive the groups apart. Hate groups broadcast polarizing propaganda. Motivations for targeting a group are indoctrinated through mass media” ( http://genocidewatch.net/genocide-2/8-stages-of-genocide/)
The people of both sides are already doing that. I’m not sure what the proposal is here. In what hospitals would the Palestinians treat the injured of the other side? The ones that are being levelled by the IDF? With what medical supplies? The ones that are denied to them by the IDF? Palestinians are being exterminated. The people of Israel needs to overthrow Likud and hold them accountable. The people of Israel need fight their government to stop this. The Palestinians, for the most part, are also victims of the same thing.
The US needs to stop supporting Likud, and US citizens need to riot until the government listens to them. Everyone needs to stand together to stop governments from doing this, absolutely. But we need to be realistic about who has power and who actually can take action.
Hamas is the government of Gaza. Claiming otherwise is spreading misinformation.
The government of Gaza is currently holding hostages. The government of Israel has said it’s not stopping until those hostages are released.
To claim the Palestinians have no power is spreading misinformation. They absolutely have the power to stop this war.
None of this is to say what Israel’s government is doing is acceptable.
I think I prefer the camp filled with people who just want an end to the conflict, people who live on both sides of those ill defined borders.
I agree, but it’s also arguably more complicated than this. I follow a DUI lawyer on youtube who happened to be in Israel (and fairly close to a crossfire) when the war started. He gave this very real and very neutral explanation of things those of us outside the region often miss, covering his upbringing in Israel.
Basically, he said, the most common opinion you can hear from either side is “the only good OTHER SIDE is a dead OTHER SIDE”. From the mouths of civilians, from children. They believe it because their parents told them it and because they’ve lived through conflict that corroborates it.
To want peace at all costs, but to still instinctively dehumanize the other side is a very complicated place to be. And you can understand why both sides’ civilians might feel that way about the other. So many people feel a desire for justice, but to both countries, justice is the other side being punished.
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When you describe a group of people as a rabid dog and when you describe mass murderers as having more of a good reason for it, you need to stop and rethink your entire view. Something in your reasoning is just morally broken.
There are plenty of good people. There are plenty of non-combatants in both Palestine and Israel who really wish the violence could end tomorrow, and they really wouldn’t follow it up with other attacks. You know how I know? Because there’s people like that in every country in the world. Of course some people are way into violence, but many other people just want to live their lives. And we all agree that it’s difficult to make that happen.
You wrote that in Palestinian culture many people would happily sacrifice their own life just to kill some Israelis. Surely that’s true for some people. But which is worse, sacrificing your own life to take out an enemy, or sacrificing your friend’s life to take out an enemy? They’re both pretty horrible, and I see no need to go into any further analysis, except to remark that this is where your reasoning leads.
I feel you showed great restraint by not putting reason in inverted commas there.
What’s Israel’s superior justification, and where’s any evidence of restraint beyond keeping things juuuust below the threshold where the US will be forced to withdraw support from it’s regional toehold?
This discussion happened between me and a Zionist just the other day
them: What would you do if 1200 of your people were butchered?
me: 17k of my people have been butchered by Israel
them: “As a Palestinian, you don’t have any criticism of Hamas ? Oct 7th was just an “act of resistance” according to your view?”
I wonder how people like that would treat me if they met me on the public street.
them: What would you do if 1200 of your people were butchered?
me: 17k of my people have been butchered by Israel
What’s the timeline of these events?
Within the same 2 months.
Timeline? Hamas does a terror attack on Oct 7th and kills 1200 people, Israel responds by killing at least 17000 Palestinians over the next 2 months and that’s just the lower end of the estimate.
Exactly. One of these actions caused the other.
Hamas attacking Isreal justifies Isreal attacking Gaza. So the next Hamas attack is then justified because Isreal attacked them? Or does the justification go only one way for you?
That’s a very simplistic take for a complex long-term problem that people have been struggling to solve for a very long time.
Let me expand the timeline for you slightly:
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1948: Israel expels 700,000 Palestinians from their homeland, with the aid of the British empire.
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1948-Oct 6th: Israel continues to exist as an apartheid state.
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Oct 7th: Hamas terror attack, killing 1200 people. Israel continues to exist as an apartheid state.
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Oct 8th-now: Israel kills 17000+ Palestinians. Israel continues to exist as an apartheid state.
You shouldn’t have expected better from @fosforus@sopuli.xyz and I shouldn’t have answered their dumb question either… I should have stopped for a moment and said to myself, “why would anyone ask this question unless to make a hideous point?”
It’s got the same undertone as the “What would you do if 1200 of your people were butchered?” question. Not whatever you’re doing, that’s for sure!
Both you and @aberrate_junior_beatnik@lemmy.world conveniently left a lot of shitty things the Arabs have done to Israelis during the last 100 years from that summary, most importantly how in 1948 Israel successfully fought a war that all its neighbors started. And then another one in 1967 (although Israel did start that one pre-emptively, with amazing effectiveness). Neither party is a virtuous angel, nobody is in a war.
That’s why we should select who we support based on values and the stated end game scenarios of both these states and peoples. Which is why I’m decisively rooting for Israel and by extension also Palestine, against Hamas, because Israel is by a large margin more aligned to liberalism, other western values and modernity.
Israel is by a large margin more aligned to liberalism
It absolutely isn’t.
It’s like somehow you can’t get it through your thick head that you can’t just rob people of their land and massacre them, otherwise they retaliate.
Framing 1948 as some kind of Israeli victory will go down the dumpster of history in style.
"Israel fights war to successfully ethnically cleanse 700k Palestinians and destroy 500 of their villages, then claims that the Palestinians abandoned their homes, hence making them totally up for grabs. "
Yeah that sounds lovely.
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Don’t leave us hanging, what is your answer to their last question?
I’m highly critical of Hamas and have lost many friends over it.
I am always curious, why does Egypt not want to help Palestinian refugees? Or even allow then to travel through?
Good question. The official position is that they would not be able to go back to gaza once the war ended. And therefore they would be helping israel in displacing the palestinian people of their lands.
Plus, i suspect no one really wants 2M “permanent” refugees. On election season no less.
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They can, and they do: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/19/egypt-rafah-crossing-aid-enter-gaza-why-closed-israel-us-egypt?trk=public_post_comment-text
Dont quote me on this, but i think the majority (all) of aid comes through egypt.
Thing is, it “has” to have the supervision of Israel or else they would whine about weapons in trucks.
Because the guy who runs Egypt is a dictator. Guess who appointed him?
Because then in 5 years israel would start attacking and creating “buffer zones” within Egypt until Egypt ceases to exist.
Israel is like the Nazi’s in every single way. They want to keep expanding their lebensraum and genocide everyone who isn’t of their race.
Deplacing the Palestinians would only worsen the problem because they are not the problem, israel is.
Because then in 5 years israel would start attacking and creating “buffer zones” within Egypt until Egypt ceases to exist.
That’s an odd claim. When has Israel claimed Egyptian territory as their historical land?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation_of_the_Sinai_Peninsula
They already had settlers on it.
Also they tried to steal Lebanon but got owned by Hezbollah. So they had to give it back.
Israeli ministers are already saying they want to colonize Lebanon and Jordan. They will never stop.
“…and genocide everyone who isn’t of their race…”
What race is that?
Zionists were using that phrase before Israel was even a state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea?wprov=sfla1
Me IRL
So you support the displacement of the people of israel?
- Where to?
- Which people? Anyone who is an Israeli citizen?
You know, when you advantage a hypothetical displacement over an ongoing one, the implicit argument is that Israelis are superior to Palestinians. You’re asking: wouldn’t it be horrible for the Palestinians to do to the Israelis what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians?
If you think it’s unfair to displace one oppressed people in favor of another, then yea, I agree.
And the slogan is “Palestine will be free”. It isn’t that Israelis will be exiled or some shit. It is a call for liberation of all people.
Let’s also not forget that these people didn’t seem to care that Israel very much engaged in “from the river to the sea” when they continued to displace and marginalize the majority-population mid-20th century as dictated by outside nations.
And if the world was that concerned over the refugees of the Holocaust, why didn’t the British or Poland volunteer a piece of their own land?
I mean, it’s because the antisemites wanted to get rid of their Jewish population. Belfour (of the declaration fame) was wildly antisemitic.
Let’s also not forget that these people didn’t seem to care that Israel very much engaged in “from the river to the sea” when they continued to displace and marginalize the majority-population mid-20th century as dictated by outside nations.
This was actually in the original charter for Likud
The thing is that nobody cares about Holocaust survivors, Israel has completely forgotten about them and most died in abject poverty despite the world paying lip service with millions in charity and repairs ending up in the pockets of zionist politicians while the holocaust survivors suffered and starved.
Umm. Generalize much? Sure there are some people fitting that description but the vast majority of holocaust survivora have led hugely successful lives. Heck, they built Israel.
You mean like women and minorities are “free” in Palestine?
Pink washing doesn’t really work when the state you are staning for doesn’t allow interfaith or gay marriages to be performed in country.
At least, you know, they allow people to be gay or have another religion.
It’s interesting how so many people stan for a place like Gaza and the Westbank. And even call for Israel to be abolished and everyone become a part of a new country called “Palestine” that murders gay people and openly hates people of other ethnicities and religions.
It does seem to me like these people either don’t know much about the culture and history there, or they don’t care. Which doesn’t fit to the overall virtue signalling to pretend to be on the side of justice.
Again, you are painting all Palestinians as members of Hamas. They are not. And it is obvious they are not given the demographics of the region. Thousands of children have died in Gaza. They are just kids man. Israel will never be able to get rid of the stain and the people of America are waking up to what we are funding.
You are also making Israel out to be a bastion of rights for minorities or women. When Utah or Alabama are more progressive than you, it doesn’t say much good about your system.
The slogan is Palestine will be free. It is meant to say that everyone, EVERYONE in the land between the river and the sea will be free. Meaning that Jews and non Jewish arabs should live side by side as equals instead of the evil supremacists system Israel has today.
I view it as a call for a secular democracy without apartheid, which worked out in South Africa well enough without blood shed. I hope it goes as well in Israel.
I think it’s unfair to expect a people to just belly up and die because Jihadists are using their own people as human shields. There have been over 7 times where the Palestinian people have had a chance to establish an actual state. They refused each and every time. So I’m struggling to see a parallel between what Israel is doing (defending its people) vs what you are suggesting.
I think it’s unfair to expect a people to just belly up and die
This makes it sound like Israel’s existence depends on the Palestinian people NOT being free
What a coincidence, it does.
The Palestinian people have had many many options to accept a two state solution and “be free”. But they will never be free because their leaders only want the distruction of Israel and death of all jews. And, since the people and the rest of the world are intent on critisizing only Israel and making no moves towards freeing the Palestinian people from Hamas, they will NOT be free.
I’m Palestinian, grew up in a Palestinian family, went to lots of protests, “Kill all Jews” is not something people say out or appreciate. The problem is with Zionists, not Jew.
That being said, totally legal to march in Israel and chant “Death to all Arabs”
Ok. I assume you don’t live in Gaza. Because then you’d be learning antisemitism in school: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/eu-study-confirms-incitement-in-palestinian-textbooks
And I assume you don’t go to mosque because then you’d be hearing about gharqad
And probably didn’t attend these protests: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/death-to-the-jews-chants-heard-at-berlin-pro-palestinian-rally/amp/
Yes, antisemitism exists. No, Palestinians as a collective don’t want to kill all Jews. The Israel government on the other hand is adamant to kill every last Palestinian or ethnically cleanse them with forced displacement.
And no, I did not go to those protests, and if I did I would have spoken up about it and not let people chant such bullshit.
And no, I don’t go to mosques, I’m an atheist.
Ah yes and the antisemitism in books claim:
One religious studies textbook asks students to discuss the “repeated attempts by the Jews to kill the prophet” Muhammad and asks who are “other enemies of Islam.”
This is a historical event, regarding specifically the Jewish tribes near Mecca. That being said, fuck Mohammed and fuck Israel just the same.
A math text showed a picture of Palestinians hitting Israeli soldiers with slingshots to describe Newton’s second law of motion.
LOL. What is the issue exactly? Doesn’t say “Jews”, says specifically hitting an Israel soldier, as one should when all means of resistance have run out.
Another textbook “promotes a conspiracy theory that Israel removed the original stones of ancient sites in Jerusalem and replaced them with ones bearing “Zionist drawings and shapes.”
Yes, good example of antisemitism, haven’t double checked this though and don’t really know what it refers to 🤔 pretty sure Israel ruined all sorts of historical Palestinian sites anyway.
About Dalal Al Maghrebi, yeah, that’s bad, I agree, she should not be hailed as a hero.
I’m tempering my response here considering it looks like this account is singularly focused on zionist agitprop, but this bit here:
And, since the people and the rest of the world are intent on critisizing[sic] only Israel and making no moves towards freeing the Palestinian people from Hamas, they will NOT be free.
sure sounds a lot like you’re attempting to justify genocide because people have rightly criticized Israel for brutality and indifference toward the [non-combatant] people of Gaza.
I can at least feel reassured that none of your fascistic and genocidal comments have gotten much support here. You should redirect your efforts elsewhere.
Ah. The genocide card. It’s actually great when people bring that one up. Please check these facts: Palestinian population 1948: 1.37 million Palestinian population 2023: 5.5 million in Israel, about 14.2 million world wide. Here’s a meme concept for you, the one with the dog from rick and morty: “where’s the genocide summer?”
Btw, for real genocide: Jewish population of europe before ww2: 9.5 million Jewish population after ww2: 3.5 million See how that works?
“Genocide”
Yes I’m posting this again
From the River to the Sea does not necessarily insinuate that all Israelis will be displaced, killed, etc.
At minimum, the Israeli state should be abolished. I think first generation settlers who aren’t refugees and can return to their home country should probably leave.
Please go on. Where should the jews go? Which countries in the world would gladly accept 7 million jews? And by abolishing the Israel state I assume you are a big supporter of Sharia law. So no women rights, all LGBT people should be put to death, etc…
Did I say they all had to leave?
So only the gay and queer people, non-muslims and women who want human rights should leave?
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Whatever country they come from or to new palestine if that’s not possible.
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Yes, all Israelis
- Hang on, don’t stop. Which countries? And by new palastine do you mean the one controlled by Hamas who have kill all jews and christians in their charter? So basically just kill everyone who is currently living in Israel?
- So all the christian and muslim arabs who are Israeli citizens too. Right? You wouldn’t want to come off as a racist impliying only jews should be displaced would you?
1.The countries they came from. They are Jewish settlers. I.e they came from other countries to settle I’m palestianian land. So they should return to the (mostly European) countries they came from. Or they can join they can emigrate elsewhere if they don’t feel safe lying in the bed they made with how they treated Palestinians.
Just like any other decolonisation effort, the colonisers need to leave or they can stay and try and integrate or face retribution for their colonisation. Are you going to feel bad for British colonisers that got caught and displaced during revolutions in the BE?
- Yes obviously, hence why I spoke about Israel and not about Jews. Its a decolonisation effort, so they either leave to their country of origin, emmegrate elsewhere or becomes citizens of a decolonisation Palestine. You trying to imply I’m being antisemitic just shows you don’t actually care about the issue and are just using usual tactics to try and win an argument on the internet.
The majority of people living in Israel are not Europeans. Perhaps read something else than just propaganda for a change.
What do you suggest gay and queer people, muslims and women who want humans rights are supposed to do?
Nearly half of all Israeli Jews are descended from Jews who made aliyah from Europe, while around the same number are descended from Jews who made aliyah from Arab countries, Iran, Turkey, and Central Asia. Over two hundred thousand are, or are descended from, Ethiopian and Indian Jews
How about you read something other than propaganda for a change?
What do you suggest gay and queer people, muslims and women who want humans rights are supposed to do?
Move to countries that reject them? Being an oppressed minority does not give you the right to steal other people’s land and commit atrocities on them.
Maybe you’re not doing the math on the age of the average Israeli person. There’s been more than enough time since the creation of that country for multiple generations to be born there. They don’t have some other country to go home to, because that is their home.
If they can’t return to the country of their or their parents origin, then they need to go through the process of becoming legal citizens of Palestine.
Having kids their does not entitle them to the land they were born on. Russia has occupied crimea for 10 years now, there will be thousands of Russians that were born there. Does that mean Crimea belongs to Russia? Does that mean Ukraine calling for its historic borders to be recognised is genocide?
You do know that the ancestors of many Israelis are native to that area, yes? Why do they have less rights to the land and their culture than the other groups who live there?
Other than the few that lived their during ottoman rule the vast vast majority of Jews immigrated after the mandate. So the only way they have ancestors that are native is if you go back some 2,500+ years.
And if we want to do that than anyone can trace there ancestors back to Africa and you can excuse European colonialism in Africa the same way you are excusing Jewish colonialism.
So you’re calling for decolonization of all countries in the world? Every person should immigrate back to their country of origin? And how long back is “country of origin” defined? Do you acknowledge that all Jewish people originate from Israel or is that something we need to debate as well?
Obviously not, lots of countries have already been decolonised and most over aren’t colonised in the first place. Or if you argue the toss (which is all you seek to be able to do) they were colonised so long ago that there is no way to actually decolonise them. Like say England.
But if you come down to earth for a moment. Israel was created <100 years ago, and there still exists Palestine and its people that had their land stolen from. Much of which was stolen very recently. Acting like there’s no difference between this situation and every other country is dishonest at best and I’m sure you’re already aware of that.
Now do you actually care about this or a you just trying to win an Internet argument against someone who disagreed with you.
“there still exists Palestine and its people”. No. Before the state of Israel there was the british occupation. Before that the turkish ottoman empire. Before that there was an Egyptian rule and so on and so on. There were wars and the rule of this specific piece of land changed. At no point in history was there ever a Palstinian country. There is no Palestinian that can trace his lineage to some Palestinian hundreds of years ago. During all of history there were both jewish and arabs living in Israel. Calling the jewish people of Israel “colonists” is trying to change history and paint it as if jews came on ships to this country like conquistadors. After WW2, the UN decided that, maybe, after trying to exterminate the jewish people, it would make sense to give them some small pice of land to officially call their own. The arabs, instead of accepting the split launched a war in whclich they lost. And yes, many people were evicted from theor homes. Such is war. Then, they had multiple chances to accept peace offerings and build a country, instead they kept rejecting the offers and kept launching attacks at Israel. Culminating with the oct/7 attack which is where we find ourselves today. As i mentioned earlier, you and many around the world would like the Jews to just die. That won’t happen. What you should be doing is making memes about Hamas and how they keep enriching their leaders pockets and building terror infrastructure instead of helping the Palestinian people.
This is actually the stupidest fucking argument you could possibly make on this subject.
Show me when an Indian country existed before British rule, or a South African country. Does that mean India had no right to freedom? No of course not. So why does their not being a specific country of Palestine before now invalidate the Palestinians right to freedom.
is trying to change history and paint it as if jews came on ships to this country like conquistadors. After WW2, the UN decided that, maybe, after trying to exterminate the jewish people, it would make sense to give them some small pice of land to officially call their own.
I actually laughed out loud at this. This would be great comedic timing in a political satire. Accusing me of trying to change history then in the next fucking line you do it yourself. Israel wasn’t some magnanimous compensation for the holocaust. Jews were still looked down on by most people in the west so this was the Jews chance to escape but for the governemnts in the west it was a solution to the Jewish “problem”, literally just an excuse to get rid of the Jews. So they set up a colony in Palestine, since they didn’t give a shit about what the Arabs wanted either. There is no “well akshually it’s not a colony because a tiny minority of Jews already lived their” it’s a colony by every definition.
And I really can’t be arsed to go through your whole “the Arabs were actually in the wrong for not accepting having their land unilaterally stolen from them” bullshit and you outright hand-waving of Israeli occupation and settlements. Just pretty clear you don’t actually give a shit about any sort of morals or reasoning. You’re either here because peoples lives are fun little arguments for you, or you made up your mind a while ago and no amount of information to the contrary will ever change your mind so you just causally dismiss it in order to stick to your opinions.
So with that said I’m just going to block you because you’re either a bored troll or an actual morally bankrupt piece of shit, and I don’t want to deal with either one.
At no point in history was there ever a Palestinian country
Then why did the Brits use the word Palestine?
There is no Palestinian that can trace his lineage to some Palestinian hundreds of years ago.
Are you like a disinformation bot??? How do you even suggest to prove this claim???
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