• JusticeForPorygon@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    196
    ·
    4 months ago

    One of, if not the first major book burning in Nazi Germany occured on May 6th, 1933, at the Institute of Sexology, a foundation known for their advocacy for transgender and homosexual equality.

    • TotallynotJessica@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      121
      ·
      4 months ago

      “Trans people didn’t exist in the past.”

      You literally destroyed our history to perpetuate this myth. We’ll never erase your history, just show how it was a lie undeserving of respect.

      • Cethin@lemmy.zip
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        41
        ·
        4 months ago

        When you’re on the right side of history it’s better to leave history intact. It shows what you had to fight. When you’re on the wrong side you need it destroyed, so people don’t realize how bad you are.

    • TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      23
      ·
      edit-2
      4 months ago

      It’s quite interesting that academics back then knew homosexuality and transgenderism are completely normal and not aberrations. Even Sigmund Freud also agreed.

      It’s just that society as a whole has been completely anti-lgbt. I always say it is the relic of homophobic teachings from Abrahamic religions. Ancient Greeks and Romans were completely fine with homosexuality until Christianity became enforced in Europe and elsewhere; then later Islam came along and did the same.

      • Wxnzxn@lemmy.ml
        cake
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        22
        ·
        edit-2
        4 months ago

        Eh, this is a bit of a half-thruth. Ancient Romans did not really categorize by sexual preference, but by gender roles taken on during sex. They basically had a penetrator-penetrated dichotomy, and taking on a “female” role was definitely shameful for men in their society, and taking on a “male” role as a woman would have been seen as a pretty big transgression, too.

        This more or less continued into medieval and early modern times, until homosexuality was understood and categorized as an identity and concept. Together with a complete ignorance towards women’s sexuality, this lead to punishment of lesbians being rather rare (non-penetrative sex was basically not recognised as sex), while homosexual men were punished for basically perverting gender roles of sex (also for “forcing” a “female” role on another man), instead for viewing them as having a differing identity.

        While religion played a huge role to justify the discrimination of homosexuals, I’d say the root cause is the ideological imperative of maintaining sexuality as something to produce offspring, patriarchical dominance, and having women maintain their identity for sexual gratification and reproduction unless they manage to get into a monastery or similar exceptional roles (and an inherent fear of men to fall out of the male gender identity and being objectified in the same ways). That’s why this is also not just an abrahamic phenomenon, but has been pretty widespread in patriarchal societies overall, although often with exceptions for “penetrating” men maintaining their status and power.

        • TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          6
          ·
          4 months ago

          Thanks for the comprehensive reply. I am aware that some cultures are homophobic in spite of having little influence from Abrahamic religions; such as the case with East Asia. I omitted the latter because i couldn’t quite put my finger on it, but I guess patriarchy is largely the major factor for homophobia. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I noticed that cultures that are less patriarchal and egalitarian are more tolerant to lgbt. These cultures are noticeably less sedentary. For example, Philippines recognise the gender “bakla” and Native Americans also recognise “two spirits”, before European colonisation came.

          • Wxnzxn@lemmy.ml
            cake
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            9
            ·
            4 months ago

            I’d say that analysis is on point. Usually, when patrilineal inheritance and patriachical power dynamics aren’t part of the ideological structure, the need to repress lgbt dynamics within the sexes and genders is less of an imperative. Although I would be cautious to simply equate third genders in general to nonbinary/trans identities of today, they always had their own, specific historical and ideological circumstances.

            One example of what basically amounted to a “third gender” that was present also in western societies historically (although more so in other parts of the world), would be eunuchs. Created culturally (and very much materially by castration, of course) out of patriarchical concerns of inheritance and power dynamics, as a subset of people that won’t endanger inheritance and without the risk of them creating their own dynasty, they were seen as having completely different roles as to their sexuation and overall status. (Of course, it is interesting to note, that the power dynamics shifted and their position as reliable advisors “without ambition” actually led to eunuch shadow governments, for example in parts of Chinese history). Of note is, that for example castrated choir boys (done so to preserve their “angelic” voices) in western society were one of the few examples where we have evidence of them being idolised as desireable by a female POV sexually (most likely because there was no risk of pregnancy and thus a much reduced risk of an extramarital affair resulting in being shamed and/or even killed).

            So existence of a third gender does not necessarily entail respect for inherent identities of people. There are also some instances of third-gender identities being crafted basically to satisfy the sexual needs of dominant homosexual men in positions of power, often arising out of/develooing alongside male prostitution, within history.

            I am a Marxist when looking at history, so I view patriarchy as something that arose out of material conditions as a very “succesful” model to reproduce class society in the past, which is why it became so prevalent globally, even without taking colonial history into account. Reducing women to their reproductive role, while also giving them a “valued as an object” status, was beneficial to societies that impose their will violently through war and repression. You can survive and rebound from losing two-thirds of your men in war as a society, but not losing your women. And in times, where warfare and violence was much more heavily tied to physical fitness, the statistical biological differences in human sexual dimporphism further positioned patriarchical structures as a tragically succesful model - which of course did not just do good things for men at all, their lack of being valued in an objectified way also meant they were more disposable, if not in a position of power.

            More and more archeological evidence, combined with anthropological studies of non-class tribal societies, shows that on average, our ancestors in pre-history were much more egalitarian, as this was conducive, even necessary, to their survival (imagine a tribal society that had hard rules against women hunting, even if they are very much capable to do so, in a season/area where hunting is the main source of food at the moment. It would have been just stupidity. Same for men foraging, etc).

            There is also evidence, that organised warfare as we know it today only started alongside the creation of class society, as soon as a surplus of food and overall resources allowed for a surplus of people - where taking the risk of losing 2/3rds of your men to conquer territory, slaves and the surplus of others suddenly became a viable strategy. (Although, it is important to note, that there is evidence of sporadic, often genocidal conflict in pre-history as well, but it is reasonable at this point to assume those were exceptional cases, and more often than not, conflict was avoided if at all possible. For a deeper exploration of the cultural differences that arose from that avoidance of war-like conflict, I’d recommend checking out Raymond C. Kelly’s “Warless Societies and the Origin of War”)

            The material conditions of post-industrialised society open up the possibility again, of overcoming class society and with it, patriarchical society. Including finding a new dynamic for lgbt sexuation, sexuality and identity. That’s one of the main reasons I view myself as a Marxist communist, pleading to re-invent and re-organise the communist movement without following Marxism-Leninism like a religious doctrine. IMO, the world will face crises in the coming decades that, on average, people today do not have the analytical tools and contexts to understand, many fleeing into either “maintain the status quo, we can do this somehow” or “everything will be destroyed anyway (so leave me alone and maintain the status quo)” narratives for the future. I say: learn how to organise, how to fight if you are able, connect with people, and be ready to take advantage of the coming chaos. There’s no shame to be a bit of a prepper, but please without the individualism and conspiracy-mindedness of what the stereotype would be.

            OK, sorry, I went on a bit of a rant there, hope it was structured enough not to completely overwhelm. History, philosophy and politics are my special interest, I can get easily triggered into just typing out a wall of text.

            • masterofn001@lemmy.ca
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              8
              ·
              4 months ago

              This is the best kind of rant.

              When people who know their stuff are excited to share their stuff it’s usually good stuff.

            • blackstampede@sh.itjust.works
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              6
              ·
              4 months ago

              Do not apologize for summarizing lots of information into a shorter form for those of us with only a little context. It’s a valuable service. Thanks.

      • excral@feddit.org
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        4 months ago

        To be fair that’s mostly a case of “even a broken clock is right twice a day”. Psychology was still in its infancy back then and they had so few ideas how to actually help people that insulin shock therapy and lobotomy seemed like good ideas. When looking at it with modern knowledge it’s easy to say they already knew when pointing at the bits of decent ideas back then. In reality that’s cherry picking between the heaps of wrong and outright dangerous ideas prevalent at the time.

    • norimee@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      14
      ·
      4 months ago

      Yes. Look up Dr. Magnus Hirschfeld and his gender affirming care in early 20th century Germany. The Berlin “Institut für Sexualwissenschaft” was the world’s first trans clinic from 1919 until the Nazis destroyed it 1933.

      Watch Eldorado: Everything the Nazis Hate about Berlin’s vibrant trans community and how the rise of the nazis destroyed them.

  • Jimbo@yiffit.net
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    58
    ·
    4 months ago

    5 years ago…

    5 years ago was 2019, that statement is equally funny as it is horrifying

  • WFH@lemm.ee
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    23
    ·
    4 months ago

    Electronic music pioneer and fuckin LEGEND Wendy Carlos, thank you very much.

  • Tilgare@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    23
    ·
    4 months ago

    It makes me feel icky to type it out… The terms “tranny” and “transvestite” were very common nomenclature in the 90s. In conversation, movies, television. Trans people were often a punchline. And absolutely existed.

    • MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      ·
      4 months ago

      Transvestite, I believe, is also a term applied to intersex persons as well, as far as I know… At least historically.

      The condition of being intersex, as far as I’m aware, is a well known condition dating back really far.

      Those people truly have no gender (and/or they’re both genders? IDK), so “trans” doesn’t really apply to them IMO.

      • shneancy@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        4
        ·
        4 months ago

        intersex people are exactly that - somewhere outside of the binary of the two sexes. Thanks to them we see the clearest example of how gender is simply assigned to a child at birth. Majority of intersex children are forced into one of the binary sexes and then forcefully assigned a gender to match so they can be “normal”.

        and it honestly comes down to the individual if they see themselves as trans or not, some might see what their parents did to be a forced transition, some might want to detransition from that, some might not

      • Snowclone@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        edit-2
        4 months ago

        People used to use hermaphrodite as a slur not that long ago for intersex people, as well.

  • ieatpwns@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    20
    ·
    4 months ago

    Are They the ones with the sick sideburns playing with a homemade synth in that video from the 70s?

  • Julian@lemm.ee
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    20
    ·
    4 months ago

    The first programmer was a woman (Ada Lovelace), the person who laid the foundation for all modern computing was gay (Alan Turing), and the person who revolutionized modern chip design was trans (Lynn Conway). Computer science history is filled with queerness and diversity.

    • NostraDavid@programming.dev
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      16
      ·
      4 months ago

      How dare you forget Sophie Wilson, inventor of the ARM chip (which exists in literally every phone pretty much since… 1997?) 😆

      She also partakes in Europython (though not sure if she joined this year, but she was there last year, even though I missed both xD), for the Python nerds.

    • Jiggle_Physics@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      19
      ·
      4 months ago

      Already have seen this. I have seen arguments pointing out what the Nazis did to trans people, the first clinic for trans people, and the research materials on it, get met with replies that it’s revisionist, fraudulent, jewish, propaganda.

      • Lianodel@ttrpg.network
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        26
        ·
        4 months ago

        JK Rowling did that not too long ago. (She didn’t call it Jewish, but absolutely called it lies and propaganda that trans people and trans researchers were early targets for the Nazis and victims of the Holocaust.)

        I don’t say this to obsess over the Harry Potter author, but to point out that you don’t have to go cherry picking to find this shit. She’s a prominent person using her platform to spread bigotry and misinformation.

        • Jiggle_Physics@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          11
          ·
          4 months ago

          oh yeah, i know about her, she is putting that stuff into the mainstream. Worst part is, she is likely so touchy about this because of her own gender identity issues that she has ignored rather than resolve.

          • Lianodel@ttrpg.network
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            4 months ago

            Yeah. I know that calling bigots secretly closeted is problematic, but IIRC she has outright said that, if she were a young person today, she would question her gender identity.

            • Jiggle_Physics@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              2
              ·
              edit-2
              4 months ago

              Oh, I am not just saying this because she is anti-trans, I am saying this because she has been speaking about her issues with gender for like 20, nearly 20, years now. The more that she came out with, the more hard line anti-trans she showed herself to be. This is probably made all the worse from her trauma from rape. But hey, I am not her psychologist.

              • Lianodel@ttrpg.network
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                4 months ago

                Totally understood, and I apologize for implying you might have. It was not my attention. I just meant that, even though it’s something I avoid jumping to conclude, it does happen, and there’s reason to believe it’s the case with Rowling. She’s got issues. It doesn’t absolve her of anything, but there’s a little pity in my condemnation.

                • Jiggle_Physics@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  ·
                  4 months ago

                  Yeah, I didn’t take that comment as accusatory, just figured I would make my position clear. There is a body of evidence that shows that the more intense someone’s homophobia is, the more likely they are to be sexually aroused by homoerotic stuff. However, this does not mean homophobes are likely to be closeted queers. The vast majority of these bigots are not, in fact, homosexuals. However, every public homophobe gets a lot of reactions suggesting they are, often even from gay people. Not great.

      • mindbleach@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        7
        ·
        4 months ago

        Worth noting: a lot of the material from that German trans clinic in the 1920s-30s was destroyed by the doctors themselves. Y’know. To protect their patients from the god-damned Nazis.

    • As a kid I listened to Walter Carlos’ Switched on series, and was the kind of nerd to be a huge fan at the time. Then suddenly Wendy Carlos was continuing Walter’s work and claiming she was responsible for everything Walter had done.

      I was like ten, and we didn’t have the internet or even CDs yet, so it sound like a sibling or marital spat, and eventually the news trickled down they were one and the same.

  • ch00f@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    19
    ·
    4 months ago

    I’ve known about this woman for years and been a Tron fan since I wore out the VHS when I was six, and I never realized they were connected.

    • Uriel238 [all pronouns]@lemmy.blahaj.zone
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      4 months ago

      Yep. Made the Tron score sound like a video arcade, hence the ubiquitous discordances. This piece titled The Light Sailer features the Tron Scherzo (What I think of the Tron Theme, though now the love theme is called that).

  • Cyborganism@lemmy.ca
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    17
    ·
    4 months ago

    Yeah I saw some videos of her trying to dress up as a man in some presentation video about an electronic instrument and it just felt so out of place. She’s definitely a woman.

    • Rob T Firefly@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      edit-2
      4 months ago

      This seems nuts but it’s true. She had privately transitioned but hadn’t yet come out in 1970, and had to make some public appearances wearing awkward fake sideburns (and maybe a short-haired wig?) to pose as a man. More info here on Pink News.