Sure if the market has healthy competition and the time horizon of the shareholders is long and if everyone is perfectly rational.
You know the 3 things each of which almost never happens.
Markets rarely have healthy competition. Usually for all practical purposes consumers have few if any choices where they can spend their money. Your supermarket might have a million items but you only have two supermarket and those million items are made by 10 companies.
Time horizons of shareholders are infamous for being short. With the larger they are the shorter they are. We live in a world where for decades stocks are bought and sold with high frequency trading. Long term means a business quarter.
Homo Economis never existed. If that abomination against all that is decent ever did form it would die off having no offspring. Humans smoke, they eat junk food, they buy boats, they lose their temper, they spend 45 billion dollars on Twatter and run it into the ground. This is why you don’t leave things that matter to one asshole and just have faith that your invisible sky friend Market will correct it all eventually.
And of course, if a company successfully corners the market and extracts value beyond the tolerance of some customers who eventually attempt to harm the company and force it out of business, the company is entirely justified in using assassination drones against the insurgent NAP-violators.
I would say that boycotting is contained within one’s freedom of association. Unless you are talking about physical damages at which point an individual should have the right to protect their property, and this is also where tort law comes into play.
I generally just go straight to libraries as it’s not designed to trap/bait and it more often than not leads to productive discussions where we are both attempting to gain mutual understanding.
My apologies, I realize it seems I implied you were baiting/trapping, but that wasn’t my intention. That being said I’m sure libertarians get examples like firefighters a LOT and they probably just glaze over and dismiss it as a result. But again, didn’t mean to imply that you were engaging in bad faith and such.
Libraries are a great resource for keeping information free and protecting free speech. I think it’s very reasonable for taxes to be used in ways that benefit the community as a whole, as that serves the people who pay the taxes.
Long, long ago, I was in the LP. I think what really woke me up was actually reading Ayn Rand, and…LOL - [1]. I was also doing lots of other reading of nonfiction at the time, thank goodness and her clunky sci-fi novel was just gawdawful in every single way. Also: growing up helped a lot, too.
I think around the same time, I was looking around at others I could see in the party and realized they seemed to be comprised, yeah, of mostly white males, but also: doomsday preppers, gold bugs, conspiracy theorists (and not the fun Robert Anton Wilson kind), thinly-veiled racists, Republicans that were miffed about some minor infraction they perceived in the Republican Party, and so on…and so I was done.
[1] Yeah, yeah I know all too much about the hair-splitting between Objectivists and LIbertarians. Also, when it comes to what many consider a formative text for their weird philosophy, that old quote is so very true:
“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
Objectivists don’t bother me much. No one is raised Objectivist, since Objectivists don’t have children, which means that they become one by thinking about it, you can reason with someone who used reason to convince themselves of a position.
Unlike the short bus philosophy of Lolitarianism which is basically: I am a white het cis teenage male who has never faced real problems in my life, think I am invincible, and dont want to be told what to do. There is something about listening to someone who for 18 years has done nothing but consume resources, been protected from all the problems the rest of the world deals with, then whine about how they had to pay 10% of their salary to taxes.
If you think about it all children clothing is made for kids by kids. Maybe appreciate labor laws and welfare a bit after thinking about the horror of that sentence.
No - roads are for the public good and should be supported by taxpayers that benefit with the possibility of ‘penalizing’ heavy vehicles that do more wear on roads.
I personally feel that roads are a complicated issue. A public police force is necessary to ensure the best equal application of the law. Fire departments are sort of a contextual issue – I am inclined to treat fire departments as more of a utility.
Sorry, didn’t mention the others but generally things that are for the public benefit/use should be maintained through tax dollars without profit-pressure to extract ‘value’. How does a fire department generate revenue? Or police? They don’t and they shouldn’t be designed to - they’re a public utility for the supposed benefit of all in the community.
Firefighters should be a private enterprise and figure their revenue streams out themselves. They don’t need the government telling them how to run a business.
Roads are a complicated issue. I feel that roads fall under the idea of an “intrinsic monopoly” – by their very existence, they create a monopoly, and are thus anti-competitive, and thus anti-free-market.
I would argue that it depends on context. Take the following two examples:
A densly packed urban environment
A rural countryside with sparsely placed dwellings
In the first example, a fire on one person’s property can quickly threaten the property of many others around it. This danger could be argued to be so great that, if in a system where each individual must pay for fire services, and one individual does not, this can be seen as a threat to the livelihood of others – a form of “aggression”, if you will. It would be in everyone’s best interest to have a municipal, or community fire department that the public pays for.
In the second example, no dwelling, or proprety is realistically a threat to any other. The only danger is to one’s own property. As a result, it could be argued that, in such a situation, the individual could not be expected to pay for the fire service. If they wish to have its benefits, they could choose to pay, say, a subscription fee.
generally things that are for the public benefit/use should be maintained through tax dollars without profit-pressure to extract ‘value’.
Generally, I would be inclined to agree, but one must tread cautiously.
How does a fire department generate revenue?
Presumably, one could pay a subscription fee for the pleasure in having the added level of safety, similar to paying for insurance; however, it could be argued that, in certain scenarios, the lack of a publicly funded, mandatory fire department is an intrinsic threat from one to another. For example, if you look at a densely packed city, a fire can spread very rapidly, and indiscriminately. This would be funded through tax dollars. In other scenarios, for example, a rural, sparsely populated region of farmland, there could be no perceived intrinsic thread, so a mandatory fire department would not be necessary.
Or police?
I would argue that it would be a conflict of interest for police to be payed. One could pay for their own private security, sure, but the state should provide the means to ensure that the rights, and freedoms of the individual are upheld. This is outlined in something called a Night-Watchman State.
they’re a public utility for the supposed benefit of all in the community.
This does raise the question if everyone must pay taxes for utilities even if they do not use them. I would personally argue that no an individual should not be expected to pay for a utility that they are not using.
Do you think roads, police and fire departments should have a pay-per-use system?
i think air should be bottled and sold on the free market.
Way ahead of you:
The free market will set a fair price.
Lack of regulation will make sure it’s a low price and why would a company want to kill off its customers?
Sure if the market has healthy competition and the time horizon of the shareholders is long and if everyone is perfectly rational.
You know the 3 things each of which almost never happens.
Markets rarely have healthy competition. Usually for all practical purposes consumers have few if any choices where they can spend their money. Your supermarket might have a million items but you only have two supermarket and those million items are made by 10 companies.
Time horizons of shareholders are infamous for being short. With the larger they are the shorter they are. We live in a world where for decades stocks are bought and sold with high frequency trading. Long term means a business quarter.
Homo Economis never existed. If that abomination against all that is decent ever did form it would die off having no offspring. Humans smoke, they eat junk food, they buy boats, they lose their temper, they spend 45 billion dollars on Twatter and run it into the ground. This is why you don’t leave things that matter to one asshole and just have faith that your invisible sky friend Market will correct it all eventually.
More customers dying means fewer people buying, therefore it’s better to rent them. See, the invisible hand of the free market(swt) correcting itself.
And of course, if a company successfully corners the market and extracts value beyond the tolerance of some customers who eventually attempt to harm the company and force it out of business, the company is entirely justified in using assassination drones against the insurgent NAP-violators.
I would say that boycotting is contained within one’s freedom of association. Unless you are talking about physical damages at which point an individual should have the right to protect their property, and this is also where tort law comes into play.
It’s what the free market wants.
All hail the free market.
I generally just go straight to libraries as it’s not designed to trap/bait and it more often than not leads to productive discussions where we are both attempting to gain mutual understanding.
It’s not a trap or bait, it’s pointing out that it takes money to use and maintain these things.
My apologies, I realize it seems I implied you were baiting/trapping, but that wasn’t my intention. That being said I’m sure libertarians get examples like firefighters a LOT and they probably just glaze over and dismiss it as a result. But again, didn’t mean to imply that you were engaging in bad faith and such.
It’s because it is a fairly obvious example.
It’d be better to have a response that makes sense instead of ‘glazing over and dismissing it’.
Libraries are a great resource for keeping information free and protecting free speech. I think it’s very reasonable for taxes to be used in ways that benefit the community as a whole, as that serves the people who pay the taxes.
deleted by creator
You mean that the one group of people in the US who have no fear are the ones advocating for a government that protects no one?
deleted by creator
Long, long ago, I was in the LP. I think what really woke me up was actually reading Ayn Rand, and…LOL - [1]. I was also doing lots of other reading of nonfiction at the time, thank goodness and her clunky sci-fi novel was just gawdawful in every single way. Also: growing up helped a lot, too.
I think around the same time, I was looking around at others I could see in the party and realized they seemed to be comprised, yeah, of mostly white males, but also: doomsday preppers, gold bugs, conspiracy theorists (and not the fun Robert Anton Wilson kind), thinly-veiled racists, Republicans that were miffed about some minor infraction they perceived in the Republican Party, and so on…and so I was done.
[1] Yeah, yeah I know all too much about the hair-splitting between Objectivists and LIbertarians. Also, when it comes to what many consider a formative text for their weird philosophy, that old quote is so very true:
“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
Objectivists don’t bother me much. No one is raised Objectivist, since Objectivists don’t have children, which means that they become one by thinking about it, you can reason with someone who used reason to convince themselves of a position.
Unlike the short bus philosophy of Lolitarianism which is basically: I am a white het cis teenage male who has never faced real problems in my life, think I am invincible, and dont want to be told what to do. There is something about listening to someone who for 18 years has done nothing but consume resources, been protected from all the problems the rest of the world deals with, then whine about how they had to pay 10% of their salary to taxes.
If you think about it all children clothing is made for kids by kids. Maybe appreciate labor laws and welfare a bit after thinking about the horror of that sentence.
deleted by creator
(in case it wasn’t clear that was a “yes and”)
Yes, if you consider existing in society “use”. I think that’s just a standard annual tax. Roads, that’s tricky. Otherwise no.
In a Night-Watchman State, wouldn’t a public police force be necessary?
No - roads are for the public good and should be supported by taxpayers that benefit with the possibility of ‘penalizing’ heavy vehicles that do more wear on roads.
We call those taxes
Thanks, captain obvious.
No problem, SatansMaggotyCumFart
I personally feel that roads are a complicated issue. A public police force is necessary to ensure the best equal application of the law. Fire departments are sort of a contextual issue – I am inclined to treat fire departments as more of a utility.
Sorry, didn’t mention the others but generally things that are for the public benefit/use should be maintained through tax dollars without profit-pressure to extract ‘value’. How does a fire department generate revenue? Or police? They don’t and they shouldn’t be designed to - they’re a public utility for the supposed benefit of all in the community.
Firefighters should be a private enterprise and figure their revenue streams out themselves. They don’t need the government telling them how to run a business.
Roads can easily made all private for-profit toll roads and people could decide for themselves if they want to use the McHighways or the WalMiles.
Roads are a complicated issue. I feel that roads fall under the idea of an “intrinsic monopoly” – by their very existence, they create a monopoly, and are thus anti-competitive, and thus anti-free-market.
I would argue that it depends on context. Take the following two examples:
In the first example, a fire on one person’s property can quickly threaten the property of many others around it. This danger could be argued to be so great that, if in a system where each individual must pay for fire services, and one individual does not, this can be seen as a threat to the livelihood of others – a form of “aggression”, if you will. It would be in everyone’s best interest to have a municipal, or community fire department that the public pays for.
In the second example, no dwelling, or proprety is realistically a threat to any other. The only danger is to one’s own property. As a result, it could be argued that, in such a situation, the individual could not be expected to pay for the fire service. If they wish to have its benefits, they could choose to pay, say, a subscription fee.
Generally, I would be inclined to agree, but one must tread cautiously.
Presumably, one could pay a subscription fee for the pleasure in having the added level of safety, similar to paying for insurance; however, it could be argued that, in certain scenarios, the lack of a publicly funded, mandatory fire department is an intrinsic threat from one to another. For example, if you look at a densely packed city, a fire can spread very rapidly, and indiscriminately. This would be funded through tax dollars. In other scenarios, for example, a rural, sparsely populated region of farmland, there could be no perceived intrinsic thread, so a mandatory fire department would not be necessary.
I would argue that it would be a conflict of interest for police to be payed. One could pay for their own private security, sure, but the state should provide the means to ensure that the rights, and freedoms of the individual are upheld. This is outlined in something called a Night-Watchman State.
This does raise the question if everyone must pay taxes for utilities even if they do not use them. I would personally argue that no an individual should not be expected to pay for a utility that they are not using.