This is my #1 also. So many people “just asking questions”
I also hate the circlejerk of people going “I cannot possibly comprehend being gay/trans/disabled/whatever but I let them do what they want!” They’re not aliens, you can listen to them explain what they are going through and have empathy. It’s not very complicated.
I think it’s a good attitude to serve as a stepping stone away from bigotry, it appeals to the bigots by offering some common ground while giving them a path to becoming less outwardly bigoted. Social progress takes time, especially with attitudes engrained as much as homophobia used to be.
Agreed, I grew up in a very conservative area and was pretty homophobic when I started college.
“They can do whatever they want, just don’t ask me to like it” was an important stepping stone towards “oh shit, love is love” and finally actually listening to the experience of gay people.
Ultimately “live and let live” is all we can ask of anyone. If that is their attitude then they aren’t a bigot. People are expecting too much of other people now - not embracing someone does not make someone a bigot.
Your starting position to me is honestly enough but unfortunately many people are way away from that. As a gay guy, I’d be happy with people just saying “do whatever you want want, just don’t ask me to like it”. The problem is too many people claim that with words but then actually act differently.
Don’t understand why you stereotyped people and basically insulted them and then wondered why people are offended? Yea? No one wants to see your fucking junk either. No, just because you’re not gay doesn’t make you any more or less likely to do what you are accusing them of.
Oh don’t get me started on the sealioning from the bigots! “But we need to have more Valuable Discussion™ about my horseshit that’s been debunked a million times already!”
Their moderation policy basically allowed any abhorrent view as long as it was expressed in a “civil” manner.
Trolls and racists could say things like “well, in my humble opinion, black people are just inherently violent and unintelligent” and anyone who got irate and called them out would get a warning and/or banned.
There is a decent argument historically that communism and other left movements are extremist, racist, and anti-lgbtq. When you start banning concepts, you open your communities up to several things.
Group think
Banning of other radical ideologies that you may agree with
You alienate those people from exposure to better concepts
You jump start compaction cycles for large scale propaganda organizations that could lead to actual violence
I provided four reasons why this was relevant and you jumped from communism to whataboutism? Talk about being intellectually lazy (Or a state-sponsored account)
There is a decent argument historically that communism and other left movements are extremist, racist, and anti-lgbtq.
We’re talking about today. On a relatively new community. Frankly, I see no reason to tolerate the bigots you’re so keen on coddling until they take over and make this another version of reddit’s the_donald, complete with organizing nazi rallies. Particularly not with the vague and spurious “there is a decent argument” hand wavy FUD that you didn’t explain as a justification. Are a lot of people saying it?
Moving onto your 4 points, let’s look at how they worked so well over at reddit, with all the virtuous acceptance of intolerance and nazi-coddling they’ve done, shall we?
Group think
No, reddit has never had groupthink. Not for an instant. Thank god they let the bigots in otherwise they’d have groupthink!
Banning of other radical ideologies that you may agree with
Post anything on conservative even slightly counter to their bigoted orthodoxy and see how that goes. Hell, suggest that fascism is not amenable to reason and must be opposed with force anywhere on reddit and see how that goes.
You alienate those people from exposure to better concepts
They had abundant exposure to better concepts on reddit. Look how well that’s worked so far. Clearly the answer is to let them spread their shit all over lemmy.
You jump start compaction cycles for large scale propaganda organizations that could lead to actual violence
the_donald literally promoted and helped organize a nazi rally where Heather Heyer was run over and killed by a nazi’s car. On lovely ol’ bigot-coddling reddit. The sub was not banned for years afterwards. I do not want that for lemmy. I left reddit the instant an alternative that didn’t welcome bigotry got enough users.
Not everywhere has to entertain bigots. There’s already too many places that do. A community that welcomes bigots is unwelcoming to everyone but bigots. But holy shit, does it ever drive engagement.
Yes, I started with the reasons why left-leaning movements have been restricted historically right out of the gate. It is not coddling bigots. It is providing context on why any form of radical idea is restricted, including ideas that we tend to celebrate in these communities. Communist propaganda has historically put fourth that anything that is not communist is inherently fascist. Is that your definition of fascism? Are folks allowed to talk about the French protests? To many they are based in fascism.
In my opinion, you are literally promoting groupthink and closing yourself off to ideas by attempting to ban content that you disagree with based on your own definitions. Life is a little more nuanced when you are not talking about specific issues by which you know the full context.
Also, is it a relatively new community or is it an established one that you want to preserve the culture of? I am getting very mixed messages from you.
Asking for proof of this is like asking for proof that the Constitution exists. It’s a very common thing I referenced. Western anarchism has a more positive history but largely linked to furtherment of the cause over actual progression of liberties.
My point in bringing it up is that it’s extremely easy to craft a narrative that starts including relatively positive forms of speech in with the banning. That includes these little forums and your approach is exactly what happened on Reddit eventually leading to the current influx of members here now. The second you start restricting speech is when the forum starts consolidating power.
Donald Trump was elected president primarily because he could control his messaging and direct different narratives to different demographics. He was unable to do that as president so he lost the next election. By encouraging the siloing of information sources, you enable that behavior.
I don’t want Nazis but the best way to turn them is not by sending them into a forum where they are left unchecked.
Asking for proof of this is like asking for proof that the Constitution exists. It’s a very common thing I referenced. Western anarchism has a more positive history but largely linked to furtherment of the cause over actual progression of liberties.
So you’re using historical examples of dictatorial communist regimes to tar the entire modern left as permanently and irredeemably bigoted. Got what you meant from the very beginning in its entirety in perfect crystal clarity. Meanwhile, the bigots are talking about eradicating trans people right now.
My point in bringing it up is that it’s extremely easy to craft a narrative that starts including relatively positive forms of speech in with the banning.
Your point is that because some communist dictatorships were bigoted, we should tolerate bigotry from fascists right now in new communities. No. For starters, bigots are still perfectly welcome on reddit and twitter and facebook and 4chan and stormfront and so on. Not everywhere has to be welcoming to bigots. Not everywhere has to be a high minded polyannish naive community where no one locks their doors and if we just engage with bigots on their terms everything will be hunky dory and they’ll stop wanting to genocide my friends. Not everywhere needs to be a complicit platform for hate.
your approach is exactly what happened on Reddit eventually leading to the current influx of members here now
reddit welcomed bigots since day one. Lemmy needn’t.
I don’t want Nazis but the best way to turn them is not by sending them into a forum where they are left unchecked.
Do they not already have enough recruiting grounds already for your liking? Why let them have this one too? Why should people on lemmy have to deal with all the hate against minorities? Why must bigots be welcome just to make others unwelcome?
Left-leaning radical ideologies are banned all the time and usually use the same laws set up to ban far-right movements. I am not begging the question but feel free to continue spouting off the names of logical fallacies. I almost have a bingo.
I deal with propaganda and strategic messaging professionally, so by all means attempt to lecture.
Moderators who coddle bigots.
Bigots.
This is my #1 also. So many people “just asking questions”
I also hate the circlejerk of people going “I cannot possibly comprehend being gay/trans/disabled/whatever but I let them do what they want!” They’re not aliens, you can listen to them explain what they are going through and have empathy. It’s not very complicated.
I think it’s a good attitude to serve as a stepping stone away from bigotry, it appeals to the bigots by offering some common ground while giving them a path to becoming less outwardly bigoted. Social progress takes time, especially with attitudes engrained as much as homophobia used to be.
Agreed, I grew up in a very conservative area and was pretty homophobic when I started college.
“They can do whatever they want, just don’t ask me to like it” was an important stepping stone towards “oh shit, love is love” and finally actually listening to the experience of gay people.
Ultimately “live and let live” is all we can ask of anyone. If that is their attitude then they aren’t a bigot. People are expecting too much of other people now - not embracing someone does not make someone a bigot.
Your starting position to me is honestly enough but unfortunately many people are way away from that. As a gay guy, I’d be happy with people just saying “do whatever you want want, just don’t ask me to like it”. The problem is too many people claim that with words but then actually act differently.
I don’t want to see your junk and I don’t care who you’re sleeping with. I don’t understand why that’s a hard position for people to take.
Don’t understand why you stereotyped people and basically insulted them and then wondered why people are offended? Yea? No one wants to see your fucking junk either. No, just because you’re not gay doesn’t make you any more or less likely to do what you are accusing them of.
What?
Exactly what I said you bigot.
Oh don’t get me started on the sealioning from the bigots! “But we need to have more Valuable Discussion™ about my horseshit that’s been debunked a million times already!”
r/moderatepolitics was the worst for that.
Their moderation policy basically allowed any abhorrent view as long as it was expressed in a “civil” manner.
Trolls and racists could say things like “well, in my humble opinion, black people are just inherently violent and unintelligent” and anyone who got irate and called them out would get a warning and/or banned.
Unsurprisingly, that’s a fast track to becoming a racist sub. See also the Nazi bar parable.
In my experience, the more obsessed a sub’s mods were about civil language, the more “be civil” meant “don’t sass the nazis.”
Won’t anyone think of the nazis?!
There is a decent argument historically that communism and other left movements are extremist, racist, and anti-lgbtq. When you start banning concepts, you open your communities up to several things.
I said “bigots” and you immediately jumped to “whatabout communists?!”
I provided four reasons why this was relevant and you jumped from communism to whataboutism? Talk about being intellectually lazy (Or a state-sponsored account)
After starting right out the gate with:
We’re talking about today. On a relatively new community. Frankly, I see no reason to tolerate the bigots you’re so keen on coddling until they take over and make this another version of reddit’s the_donald, complete with organizing nazi rallies. Particularly not with the vague and spurious “there is a decent argument” hand wavy FUD that you didn’t explain as a justification. Are a lot of people saying it?
Moving onto your 4 points, let’s look at how they worked so well over at reddit, with all the virtuous acceptance of intolerance and nazi-coddling they’ve done, shall we?
No, reddit has never had groupthink. Not for an instant. Thank god they let the bigots in otherwise they’d have groupthink!
Post anything on conservative even slightly counter to their bigoted orthodoxy and see how that goes. Hell, suggest that fascism is not amenable to reason and must be opposed with force anywhere on reddit and see how that goes.
They had abundant exposure to better concepts on reddit. Look how well that’s worked so far. Clearly the answer is to let them spread their shit all over lemmy.
the_donald literally promoted and helped organize a nazi rally where Heather Heyer was run over and killed by a nazi’s car. On lovely ol’ bigot-coddling reddit. The sub was not banned for years afterwards. I do not want that for lemmy. I left reddit the instant an alternative that didn’t welcome bigotry got enough users.
Not everywhere has to entertain bigots. There’s already too many places that do. A community that welcomes bigots is unwelcoming to everyone but bigots. But holy shit, does it ever drive engagement.
Oh, we’re throwing around wild accusations now?
Yes, I started with the reasons why left-leaning movements have been restricted historically right out of the gate. It is not coddling bigots. It is providing context on why any form of radical idea is restricted, including ideas that we tend to celebrate in these communities. Communist propaganda has historically put fourth that anything that is not communist is inherently fascist. Is that your definition of fascism? Are folks allowed to talk about the French protests? To many they are based in fascism.
In my opinion, you are literally promoting groupthink and closing yourself off to ideas by attempting to ban content that you disagree with based on your own definitions. Life is a little more nuanced when you are not talking about specific issues by which you know the full context.
Also, is it a relatively new community or is it an established one that you want to preserve the culture of? I am getting very mixed messages from you.
No, you started with an unsupported allegation about all left-leaning movements:
Support it or don’t accuse me of being intellectually lazy.
Why am I getting “Anyone who disagrees with you is a fascist! Everyone’s a fascist to you leftists!” vibes from this?
In the context of broader world history, which is what you were talking about when you were baselessly calling anyone on the left anti-lgbtq.
It’s a new community that I don’t want overrun with nazis like you’d prefer.
Asking for proof of this is like asking for proof that the Constitution exists. It’s a very common thing I referenced. Western anarchism has a more positive history but largely linked to furtherment of the cause over actual progression of liberties.
Cuba: https://www.thedailybeast.com/fidel-castros-horrific-record-on-gay-rights
USSR: https://www.thecollector.com/harry-whyte-gay-communist-writes-to-stalin-soviet-union/
CCP: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0268580918812265
My point in bringing it up is that it’s extremely easy to craft a narrative that starts including relatively positive forms of speech in with the banning. That includes these little forums and your approach is exactly what happened on Reddit eventually leading to the current influx of members here now. The second you start restricting speech is when the forum starts consolidating power.
Donald Trump was elected president primarily because he could control his messaging and direct different narratives to different demographics. He was unable to do that as president so he lost the next election. By encouraging the siloing of information sources, you enable that behavior.
I don’t want Nazis but the best way to turn them is not by sending them into a forum where they are left unchecked.
So you’re using historical examples of dictatorial communist regimes to tar the entire modern left as permanently and irredeemably bigoted. Got what you meant from the very beginning in its entirety in perfect crystal clarity. Meanwhile, the bigots are talking about eradicating trans people right now.
Your point is that because some communist dictatorships were bigoted, we should tolerate bigotry from fascists right now in new communities. No. For starters, bigots are still perfectly welcome on reddit and twitter and facebook and 4chan and stormfront and so on. Not everywhere has to be welcoming to bigots. Not everywhere has to be a high minded polyannish naive community where no one locks their doors and if we just engage with bigots on their terms everything will be hunky dory and they’ll stop wanting to genocide my friends. Not everywhere needs to be a complicit platform for hate.
reddit welcomed bigots since day one. Lemmy needn’t.
Do they not already have enough recruiting grounds already for your liking? Why let them have this one too? Why should people on lemmy have to deal with all the hate against minorities? Why must bigots be welcome just to make others unwelcome?
You linked “communism” and “left movements” to “banning concepts” as if they go hand in hand.
You’re question begging hard, and all of your “reasons” are built on top of propaganda and logical fallacies.
Left-leaning radical ideologies are banned all the time and usually use the same laws set up to ban far-right movements. I am not begging the question but feel free to continue spouting off the names of logical fallacies. I almost have a bingo.
I deal with propaganda and strategic messaging professionally, so by all means attempt to lecture.
And you got downvoted for that truthful reality.
People who wear mustaches
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