Israeli Defense Minister Israel Katz announced Wednesday a major expansion of the military’s operation in Gaza involving the seizure of large areas of land that would be “incorporated into Israel’s security zones.”
There is even a comment saying this is our punishment for funding genocide. Families that are being broken apart, rights stripped away, growing tensions with literally everyone, and a fucking DOGE department, that’s our punishment for trying to not make things not as terrible as they could be.
I’m the punishment guy. First of all you ignored the latter half of my comment, where I said that this contradiction between civil rights at home and genocide abroad was only going to result in Trump. You can want things to happen all you want, but it was never going to work in reality. Second, yes, exactly. It’s your punishment for eliminating the option where you oppose genocide out of hand when you had a whole year to change course. I can barely accept saying “it’s too late to change things now so vote blue” in October, but “hold your nose and vote for her” in August, or—even worse—“Biden can’t step down now” in February? Calling anri-genocde critics of the party MAGA or Russian trolls? Fucking unforgivable. I have seen the way Arabs opposing the genocide of their friends and family were talked about here, and the “leopards ate my face” comments on every article about the death of a Palestinian. Not every American is directly responsible, don’t get me wrong, but with a crime as big as the merciless murder of at least a quarter million people almost every American is one way or another within the radius of moral culpability.
Tl;DR: Didn’t want MAGA Hitler? Then you should’ve opposed the damn genocide.
You’re right, I didn’t read all of your comment. I skimmed it at best (which is why I didn’t reply directly). The choice was not “civil rights at home” and “genocide abroad.” it was “both suck with Gaza, but one is a blood thirsty dumbass, and the other is your run of the mill bullshit politician.” i don’t know who is spreading this narrative that everyone who voted was voting for genocide or voting with the idea of trade off. I have not met anyone (personally) who was like," man, I hate Harris’ stance on Gaza, but as long as she gives me rights, I don’t care." It was Nazi VS Shitty Politician. I don’t know why the concept of not wanting to have a Nazi in charge is akin to saying “yes, please bomb Gaza. I’m totally okay with it.” I wasn’t okay with it when Biden did it, I wasn’t okay when Harris said she supported Biden’s actions, and I’m not okay with it now that Trump is making Ai videos of condos built on graves. I did oppose genocide and I still do.
Also, what option did I eliminate? You’re acting like election day was the only time people tried anything. In November, yes, it was too late. We didn’t rally behind a third candidate, we didn’t even get to vote for Harris as our candidate. There were protests, but, by November, it wasn’t enough. We failed. And as much as I would have wanted to say “fuck this” I knew that it wasn’t going to make literally anything any better by not voting, but would make a shit ton worse because one candidate can do and appears to be doing more damage to the other.
TL;DR: I have and still do oppose genocide and I do not believe that on election night there was a realistic chance that we could get a candidate in office that aligned with everything I would have wanted, but there was a candidate that would have made the struggle a tiny bit easier. I do not believe that Americans that voted for Harris (or honestly didn’t vote all all, regardless of my opinion) were doing it with the idea that Gaza was a worthy scarfice.
Also, what option did I eliminate? You’re acting like election day was the only time people tried anything.
No I’m not; quite the opposite in fact. Some people did try something, but they were met with either inaction, ridicule or straight up derision. Again, my problem isn’t with the people who said “it’s too late” in October; I can sympathize with that view. My problem is for the people who kept saying some combination of “it’s too late we can’t do anything” and “lalala I can’t hear you” when it was, in fact, not too late. Opposition to the Gaza genocide is almost as old as the genocide itself, and the Uncommitted/Listen to Michigan Movement got going before the Michigan primary in February. My problem with Americans is that, faced with this golden opportunity to catch the Democrats by the balls and demand real change, the best they could do was “hold your nose and vote for her”. An anti-fascist movement that doesn’t have it in it to effectively object to genocide isn’t an anti-fascist movement; it’s an anti-fascism-if-it-affects-me movement. For scale, the Spanish planned an honest to goodness general strike when their government didn’t go as far as they wanted in its opposition to Israel.
I’m not being flippant or trying to be sarcastic (I know tone doesn’t carry online), but wasn’t the act of not voting/withholding votes supposed to be the opportunity for real change? Wasn’t that the “threat” (couldn’t think of a better term). Like, “Because you’re not agreeing to xyz, I am withholding my vote.” Isn’t the current time line the result of that success, when it came to telling people to not vote as a form of protest anyway.
And if you sympathize with people in October who said “it’s too late,” what’s the difference between that and “it’s too late, we can’t do anything (right now)?” I think those two groups are the same people in a way.
Isn’t the current time line the result of that success, when it came to telling people to not vote as a form of protest anyway.
No. A success there would be for significant numbers of Democrat voters to form a united nationwide and loudly declare that they’re not voting blue until XYZ (not necessarily only Gaza-related) demands are met. People just quietly not voting is the worst possible scenario, as it gives anti-fascist/anti-fascism-if-it-affects-me forces the illusion of victory only to hand fascists power.
And if you sympathize with people in October who said “it’s too late,” what’s the difference between that and “it’s too late, we can’t do anything (right now)?” I think those two groups are the same people in a way.
The difference is that they could have done things then and simply chose not to because they didn’t want to rock the boat. Also I’m sympathizing with positions here, not with people. If person A said “nope, can’t do shit now” in August and also October then I have no sympathy for them even if I agree with them to an extent in the latter case.
I have no rebuttal. I’m in agreement with the idea that it should have been a movement. I was taking it as people saying “if you voted for Harris, you’re okay with genocide.” I get the “hold your nose a vote” thing now.
Nice talking with you and thank you for being cordial. 🤝🏾
I’m the punishment guy. First of all you ignored the latter half of my comment, where I said that this contradiction between civil rights at home and genocide abroad was only going to result in Trump. You can want things to happen all you want, but it was never going to work in reality. Second, yes, exactly. It’s your punishment for eliminating the option where you oppose genocide out of hand when you had a whole year to change course. I can barely accept saying “it’s too late to change things now so vote blue” in October, but “hold your nose and vote for her” in August, or—even worse—“Biden can’t step down now” in February? Calling anri-genocde critics of the party MAGA or Russian trolls? Fucking unforgivable. I have seen the way Arabs opposing the genocide of their friends and family were talked about here, and the “leopards ate my face” comments on every article about the death of a Palestinian. Not every American is directly responsible, don’t get me wrong, but with a crime as big as the merciless murder of at least a quarter million people almost every American is one way or another within the radius of moral culpability.
Tl;DR: Didn’t want MAGA Hitler? Then you should’ve opposed the damn genocide.
You’re right, I didn’t read all of your comment. I skimmed it at best (which is why I didn’t reply directly). The choice was not “civil rights at home” and “genocide abroad.” it was “both suck with Gaza, but one is a blood thirsty dumbass, and the other is your run of the mill bullshit politician.” i don’t know who is spreading this narrative that everyone who voted was voting for genocide or voting with the idea of trade off. I have not met anyone (personally) who was like," man, I hate Harris’ stance on Gaza, but as long as she gives me rights, I don’t care." It was Nazi VS Shitty Politician. I don’t know why the concept of not wanting to have a Nazi in charge is akin to saying “yes, please bomb Gaza. I’m totally okay with it.” I wasn’t okay with it when Biden did it, I wasn’t okay when Harris said she supported Biden’s actions, and I’m not okay with it now that Trump is making Ai videos of condos built on graves. I did oppose genocide and I still do.
Also, what option did I eliminate? You’re acting like election day was the only time people tried anything. In November, yes, it was too late. We didn’t rally behind a third candidate, we didn’t even get to vote for Harris as our candidate. There were protests, but, by November, it wasn’t enough. We failed. And as much as I would have wanted to say “fuck this” I knew that it wasn’t going to make literally anything any better by not voting, but would make a shit ton worse because one candidate can do and appears to be doing more damage to the other.
TL;DR: I have and still do oppose genocide and I do not believe that on election night there was a realistic chance that we could get a candidate in office that aligned with everything I would have wanted, but there was a candidate that would have made the struggle a tiny bit easier. I do not believe that Americans that voted for Harris (or honestly didn’t vote all all, regardless of my opinion) were doing it with the idea that Gaza was a worthy scarfice.
No I’m not; quite the opposite in fact. Some people did try something, but they were met with either inaction, ridicule or straight up derision. Again, my problem isn’t with the people who said “it’s too late” in October; I can sympathize with that view. My problem is for the people who kept saying some combination of “it’s too late we can’t do anything” and “lalala I can’t hear you” when it was, in fact, not too late. Opposition to the Gaza genocide is almost as old as the genocide itself, and the Uncommitted/Listen to Michigan Movement got going before the Michigan primary in February. My problem with Americans is that, faced with this golden opportunity to catch the Democrats by the balls and demand real change, the best they could do was “hold your nose and vote for her”. An anti-fascist movement that doesn’t have it in it to effectively object to genocide isn’t an anti-fascist movement; it’s an anti-fascism-if-it-affects-me movement. For scale, the Spanish planned an honest to goodness general strike when their government didn’t go as far as they wanted in its opposition to Israel.
I’m not being flippant or trying to be sarcastic (I know tone doesn’t carry online), but wasn’t the act of not voting/withholding votes supposed to be the opportunity for real change? Wasn’t that the “threat” (couldn’t think of a better term). Like, “Because you’re not agreeing to xyz, I am withholding my vote.” Isn’t the current time line the result of that success, when it came to telling people to not vote as a form of protest anyway.
And if you sympathize with people in October who said “it’s too late,” what’s the difference between that and “it’s too late, we can’t do anything (right now)?” I think those two groups are the same people in a way.
No. A success there would be for significant numbers of Democrat voters to form a united nationwide and loudly declare that they’re not voting blue until XYZ (not necessarily only Gaza-related) demands are met. People just quietly not voting is the worst possible scenario, as it gives anti-fascist/anti-fascism-if-it-affects-me forces the illusion of victory only to hand fascists power.
The difference is that they could have done things then and simply chose not to because they didn’t want to rock the boat. Also I’m sympathizing with positions here, not with people. If person A said “nope, can’t do shit now” in August and also October then I have no sympathy for them even if I agree with them to an extent in the latter case.
I have no rebuttal. I’m in agreement with the idea that it should have been a movement. I was taking it as people saying “if you voted for Harris, you’re okay with genocide.” I get the “hold your nose a vote” thing now.
Nice talking with you and thank you for being cordial. 🤝🏾
You are literally arguing for collective punishment. You realize that, right?