For the second time this month the Biden administration is bypassing Congress to approve an emergency weapons sale to Israel as Israel continues to prosecute its war against Hamas in Gaza under increasing international criticism.
So why tf can’t we do this for Ukraine?
Israeli genocide campaign
So hot right now
Because Joey is a Zionist.
My guess would be that there are many decades of existing treaties and legislation that allows the executive to do this for Israel. Ukraine’s troubles are just under 2 years old
The war in Ukraine started in 2014.
You’re absolutely right, and while the person you’re responding to is wrong about the Ukraine timeline, they’re pretty accurate regarding how far back the US relationship with Israel goes.
A big part of it is probably the US being the first country to recognize Israel as an independent state in 1948, and there’s just been a relatively close relationship between the two ever since.
Agreed. The thing is we’ve been supporting Ukraine for a while now- helping build up their military and supply against the Russian invasion.
Sure it’s a blink in them eye compared to Israel, but then Israel is established extremely well defended. Remember how Trump held up aid meant for Ukraine?
Oh I agree entirely, I wasn’t meaning to sound as such. US government post the year 2000 has always seemed like its stuck in “old ways” of thinking. While Donald Rumsfeld moaned about “lack of imagination” and “unknown unknowns” in respect to 9/11, the reality is the US government and political class do lack imagination, and are largely stuck in routines set down in the 70s/80s/90s that aren’t really compatible with the modern world.
A re-assessment of our relationship with nations like Israel should have been done long ago, and if we’re going to continue to be the biggest weapons producer in the world (which is something else I have issue with but is a whole screed of its own), the absolute very least the US could do is actually try to put weapons and training in the hands of people who really need it, who are at the mercy of despotic regimes trying to take over. Which in this instance would be Ukraine.
Israel doesn’t need those weapons, and it can easily be argued that Palestine does.
I was trying to provide an honest, helpful answer about the probable reason why the executive branch can take unilateral decisions about arms to Israel but not to Ukraine.
The current arrangements for arms supplies to Ukraine go back 2 years.
The current arrangements for arms supplies to Ukraine go back 2 years.
the current agreement with Israel doesn’t even go back that far. Things change. We’ve been treating Ukraine as an important partner since at least the Obama administration. Bush Jr wanted them in NATO back in 2008. Nobody is contending that Israel has been an ally for longer. But Ukraine isn’t exactly some rando, either. they’re a key partner- and were, at least, an up-and-coming regional power house. a power house that Russia saw moving increasingly westward in it’s political affiliations. (and Ukraine has historically been one of the world’s largest grain suppliers. during the Soviet Era, they produced all the grain for the Soviet Union.)
The history lesson is great. But are you claiming that the treaties and procedures that allow the US executive to supply arms to Israel without congressional say-so and the procedures for supplying arms to Ukraine are the same?
Because I’m saying that is unlikely- and largely accounts for the current disparity
Does the Ukraine have oil?
Your own link suggests a Maybe at best.
The considerable natural resources in Ukraine’s energy sphere remain underexplored and underused today despite the fact that their use could spur economic growth…
It then goes on to say it would cost about 20 Billion dollars to put in the infrastructure to even begin refining/piping the oil.
Israel is already pumping and exporting oil. It’s also already in bed with the US. From a corporate greed perspective, the choice is easy.
His link says yes, this is an intentionally incorrect response. Either that or you are an idiot speaking with confidence. But your description of Israel as a major oil producing state makes it pretty certain you are lying intentionally.
? We did like 25 times over the last five years.
For someone who characterizes others as “casual observer of politics”, you sure don’t seem to be aware of, nor understand, current events.
Because Republicans are stonewalling aid for Ukraine right now. At the same time, they fast-tracked an aid package to Israel. Know where their priorities lie.
Israel is officially a US Ally, Ukraine is not.
Bullshit semantics.
Don’t be antisemantic, bro.
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Go ahead, then. Regale us with your brilliance.
The post above told you everything. Israel is an ally, Ukraine is not. To say that the distinction is merely semantic and not legally significant in every conceivable way shows a total lack of maturity and understanding of how the United States government operates, and how diplomacy and affairs of state are conducted. It’s like something a little kid would say honestly.
Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, and as fucked up as it may sound in light of very recent events, Israel represents the only long term chance for hundreds of millions of people in the middle east for human rights. It’s not unlike America: It is not the country or the people that are a danger to the world, it is greed and nationalism. What Israel’s current government is doing in response to an unprecedented terror attack ks really a domestic issue, affecting a comparative handful of people as to what would be affected by an Iran-Israel war, which is absolutely what would happen if America hangs its ally out to dry, not to mention all the goodwill and credibility we’d lose with our other global partners.
You’re downvoted because you’re full of shit. Show me how one is legally an ally and the other isn’t. Since you invoked legal significance. Further, for your bullshit point to stand, you’d have to demonstrate how it is not within Congress’s control, or the President’s unilateral control, to render Ukraine a “legal ally”, or whatever the fuck else you fancy your bullshit criterion to be.
You’re at the peak of Mt. Stupid.
https://www.dsca.mil/foreign-military-sales-faq
Do FMS Sales require Congressional Notification?
Section 36 of the U.S. Arms Export Control Act requires Congressional notification for FMS or DCS sales expected to meet or exceed the following thresholds:
For North Atlantic Treaty Organization member countries, South Korea, Australia, Japan, Israel, and New Zealand: major defense equipment (MDE) of $25M or more; any defense articles or services of $100M or more; or design and construction services of $300M or more.
For all other countries: MDE of $14M or more; any defense articles and services of $50M or more; or design and construction services of $200M or more.
For North Atlantic Treaty Organization member countries and organizations, South Korea, Australia, Japan, Israel, and New Zealand there is a 15-day statutory notification period.
For all other countries there is a 30-day statutory notification period.
Additional Resource: Arms Sales - Congressional Review Process
How is democratic genocidal government better than autocratic genocidal government? Wasn’t Hitler democratically elected?
Chance for human rights my ass.
Yeah is Iran going to be your mid east human rights beacon?
This is of course the actual and true answer.
Lol.
Genocide Joe could easily do it he just doesn’t want to
Bro, it’s like they wanna lose so badly next year election. Listen to the people voting for you, for fuck sake.
Listen to the people voting for you, for fuck sake.
Are you new here, or did you miss when the Democratic party shut down Bernie Sanders twice in a row because he was gaining momentum and they were like “fuck, we can’t have a person who actually cares as President, we might not have as much money!!!”
Because this is par for the course.
Not the best comparative argument, since the voting public was quite clear in that regard and the conspiracies claimed were debunked pretty easily.
I, for example, was someone who voted against him because of his long-standing anti-science stances and his promotion of pseudoscience (such as him personally using his Senate position to host an “alternative medicine” conference).
You mean when they destroyed the Iowa caucus and handed the victory to a nobody loser candidate who never won another state?
Not like it fucking matters. He showed his true colors when the Party gave him his marching orders. Bend the knee to the nominee, support the President no matter what, and for what? Clout? Social Democrats are the moderate wing of fascism.
the democratic party is controlled opposition
They were controlled opposition. What Biden is doing right now is some literal Nazi shit that I only expected Trump to do this openly.
What Biden is doing right now is some literal Nazi
Biden allowed a sale that was planned long before this incident to go through.
Under Trump, 7500 Muslim civilians were killed in drone striked. https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2019/5/8/18619206/under-donald-trump-drone-strikes-far-exceed-obama-s-numbers
Trump has said he will be dictator for the 1st day to immediately deport all Muslims.
But both sides are the same.
Indeed. So vote third party or you vote for a literal Nazi.
What even is the conspiracy there? Buttigieg won. Narrowly, but he won. And both he and Sanders demanded recounts for several of the counties, which was done. Incompetent county level people, often because they have no experience and are even volunteers for much of the vote counting, is fairly common. The complicatedness of Iowa’s procedure, where non-viable candidate voters get to re-vote for the viable ones makes errors even more likely.
And errors were made in favor of both Buttigieg and Sanders, which were later corrected.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/11/hillary-clinton-2016-donald-trump-214428/
Clinton and her campaign literally were so full of hubris that they thought beating Trump was a shoe-in and went out of their way to help him become the presumptive nominee because they were so sure of this.
I will never forgive anyone involved in the Clinton campaign for this, and if you refuse to see how the scales have been tipped for corporate friendly Democrats at the expense of Democrats who actually give a shit about things like unions and working people, I don’t know what to say.
I mean for fucks sake, Biden is why Student Loans aren’t dischargeable in bankruptcy but we’re supposed to give the guy a handy for trying and failing to barely wipe any student debt away. He definitely didn’t just go back in time and take his vote back, and he definitely didn’t push congress to write new legislation to make it dischargeable in bankruptcy again.
It’s a big club and we ain’t in it.
But sure, it was just a big fucking accident that Clinton lost to Trump and it’s just a big fucking accident that Biden keeps going around congress to send money to Israel.
It’s a big club and we ain’t in it.
https://observer.com/2017/05/dnc-lawsuit-presidential-primaries-bernie-sanders-supporters/
Later in the hearing, attorneys representing the DNC claim that the Democratic National Committee would be well within their rights to “go into back rooms like they used to and smoke cigars and pick the candidate that way.” By pushing the argument throughout the proceedings of this class action lawsuit, the Democratic National Committee is telling voters in a court of law that they see no enforceable obligation in having to run a fair and impartial primary election.
The DNC attorneys even go so far as to argue that the words “impartial” and “evenhanded”—used in the DNC Charter—can’t be interpreted by a court of law. Beck retorted, “I’m shocked to hear that we can’t define what it means to be evenhanded and impartial. If that were the case, we couldn’t have courts. I mean, that’s what courts do every day, is decide disputes in an evenhanded and impartial manner.”
Why even make such an argument if you can’t just prove you didn’t do such a thing instead of being like “actually, it’s totally legal for us to do that, so you need to be okay with it?”
This is literally just like Trump. He’s not denying he tried to do a coup in court, he’s quibbling about fucking wonky bullshit like whether or not the President is an “office” of the US. It’s a bunch of talking out of both sides of their mouth.
If they could defend what they did, they wouldn’t have turned to this defense in court. The fact that they did always speaks to them not giving a shit.
We were talking about 2020. What does any of the block of text you’ve wrote have to do with voting conspiracies?
The original statement made by me referenced that this happened twice and this was the first of those two times that I referenced. Just because you decided to only talk about 2020 doesn’t mean that’s the only one I was referring to. I wonder if you didn’t want to talk about the other because of the literal mountains of fucking evidence behind it?
If you want to do a run-around and act like previous behavior from a major political party shouldn’t be used to judge their current behavior, you’re just not arguing in good faith.
The AP itself doesn’t trust the results enough to declare a winner.
Shadow Inc., which both Buttigieg and Biden payed for services in 2019, shat the bed and ruined the caucus. Those results and the recanvass were riddled with errors and inconsistencies, ranging from bad math to bad handwriting to bad head counting. It’s not trustworthy.
Now, for my speculation: the Party sabotaged the Iowa caucus to stop an outsider from getting momentum in Iowa. Maybe the plan was always to just crash the caucus so it didn’t matter, maybe Iowa was always supposed to be sacrificed, but if Bernie had won Iowa and then proceeded to win all the states leading up to South Carolina I don’t think Biden would have won. There’s a clear motive.
And what we do know is Obama played kingmaker by getting almost the entire field of candidates to drop out, including the supposed Iowa winner Buttigieg, to endorse Biden and keep the outsider from recovering after South Carolina.
Part ordinary party-politics, part suspicious dealing with Shadow Inc., and the outsider was kept from winning. I know is there’s no hope for me in that party, because if another outsider comes they will be stopped because the party will circle the wagons.
Especially now Iowa has been discarded. No more first in the nation, no more caucus, we’re just another trash redstate to be ignored.
Now, for my speculation: the Party sabotaged the Iowa caucus to stop an outsider from getting momentum in Iowa.
That is, at least, a conspiracy. Not one that stands up to scrutiny though. Shadow Inc did screw up. Unfortunately, if you look at state level things in many, many prior elections, that’s not uncommon. State level voting systems are tacked together, poorly funded crapshoots.
And your claims about Obama doesn’t have anything to do with the voters. If the people who supported those candidates supported Bernie as a replacement, then that’s how they would have voted. But they didn’t. He in fact lost worse than in the previous election.
The fact that the earliest states in the primary have long been those that don’t represent the general Democrat voting public has been a complaint for years, if not decades. So changing what states are at the beginning has been something pushed for for years as well.
That is, at least, a conspiracy. Not one that stands up to scrutiny though. Shadow Inc did screw up. Unfortunately, if you look at state level things in many, many prior elections, that’s not uncommon. State level voting systems are tacked together, poorly funded crapshoots.
And your claims about Obama doesn’t have anything to do with the voters. If the people who supported those candidates supported Bernie as a replacement, then that’s how they would have voted. But they didn’t. He in fact lost worse than in the previous election.
So your argument is “all state level elections are fucked and Iowa isn’t special”. That’s actually a reasonable counter argument! Maybe all states look shady and corrupt and broken whenever anyone looks at them as closely as people looked at Iowa after the caucus imploded. If that’s the case, though, then that’s just a further argument for not trusting the elections!
And to clarify, I wasn’t claiming Obama playing kingmaker was a conspiracy (although it was in the literal sense of the word i.e. multiple politicians conspiring together to make Biden the nominee by endorsing him). That’s actually just normal party politics. It just shows that there’s actually no hope for an outsider to win a party nomination, which is to be expected.
I’ve decided I’m just not voting next election. I’m sick of all the drama and lies, The US is fucked anyway, might as well not leave it on life support. Between constant wars, inability to handle the most basic of citizens needs and each party being a pissing contest I just decided there’s no point in doing so. Not like either candidate follows their user bases values anyway and it’s super unlikely anyone else will win. I’ll change my mind when I see evidence that says otherwise. I’ve given it 8 years and seen no real big change.
I don’t blame you. It’s exhausting to see American leadership spending the minimal amount of political capital to please the ruling class while working class Americans suffer and we see our tax dollars funding wars and genocide abroad. I’ve decided to vote for Claudia and Karina on the PSL ticket. It will be the first time ever voting for PSL but I am so done supporting conservative Democrats offering last minute concessions after flopping through the entirety of their term.
Thanks for sharing!
For those reading this and think third party votes are “A wAsTE oFA vOtE”
It’s a waste of your vote to vote for someone you don’t want in office, just because you dislike the other likely candidate more.
A third party votes move to change main party platforms. If enough people vote for a third party, a major party is more likely to take up those stances to get those votes. Your vote isn’t always abouting winning.
Idiotic take.
How many civilian deaths is Biden responsible for and how many was trump responsible for? trump is probably the lesser of 2 evils in that respect at this point
Idiotic, totally clueless take.
Brilliant response I’m totally owned. Have fun voting for genocide
Hundreds of thousands of people that died from covid likely would have lived had anyone else been in office, even other Republicans. If I was a law and order type I’d say Trump should be hanged for mass murder. But you could say the same of Biden when looking at his political history really.
After seeing the way Biden has handled covid you really think he would’ve done anything better than trump in 2020? I really really doubt it.
Biden has always pushed for more bombing in the middle east his record speaks for itself he’s a bloodthirsty imperialist.
Trump ramped up killing civilians with drone strikes under his administration.
“Airwars, estimates the number to be as great as 7,500.”
That’s direct deaths ordered by Trump which is completely different Biden allowing an arm sale planned months/years ago to go through.
Biden gave Natenyahu carte blanche after oct 7th and told him the US would have his back no matter what. Biden is in the position to put pressure on the Israeli gov but refuses to do so. The blood is on his hands
Yeah, let the greater evil win earlier, what a plan. JFC
Considering my state banned the most likely primary republican candidate, I don’t think the democratic Party is dying for my specific vote. And if they were, my recommendation is to find someone who can walk the walk. I don’t think the current one failed but, I think his priorities are in the wrong location. That is the entire point of the voting system, “you can’t not vote X or Y will win” is a toxic mindset, changes never happen if you just blindly vote regardless of situation.
I think people are finally asking themselves “If I’m voting for a lesser evil, and every vote of my lifetime has been a vote for ‘lesser evil’, is it the ruling class itself that is evil?”
Your choice is between killing some or killing them all. Trump has said he will deport all Muslims as dictator on day 1. He expressed no sympathy for Gaza instead saying he wants it to play out.
It’s the lesser of 2 evils. The world isn’t fair. But you have the power to stop the worse evil.
Thank you for not supporting anyone committing genocide.
Either a third party or no vote.
Honestly, I’m sure the right wing loves this. They love a good war, and Trump won’t give that to them.
On the flip side, watch Trump convince them all to denounce war. That would be hilarious.
LMFAO. Vote for Trump. That’ll surely help the Arabs…who he fucking banned from America on his first day in office last time. Super big brain move by the pro pally crowd if they pull that one off.
I’m already not voting for Joey.
Never voting for the lesser evil again.
The entire world can burn in hell, for all I care. It’s what we deserve for constantly pussy-ing out.
So instead of just not voting and pussy-ing out encourage yourself and others to do more than just abstain. Voting is only one basic step for a society, we need to take real actions to make the change we want. Part of pussy-ing out is the idea that voting is all we can do, and now that voting seems useless we are just boned. There have always been people on the ground agitating for the real progress.
Lots of us believe in Israel’s right to defend itself. You’re on Lemmy, so it can seem that this isn’t a divided or divisive issue, but I assure you it is–especially among people who know their history. Another reason the bulk of the 18-24 group is making up a lot of the Hamas sympathizers.
Not looking to debate it eith you, but I PROMISE, if you get out of the Lemmy bubble you’ll find it’s not a cut and dry situation like you framed it.
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Yet that’s exactly what Israel has done for decades and every gd President has backed them on it.
Nothing ever changes.
sigh
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Hamas has launched over 10,000 rockets at Israel in November alone. If Israel is getting bombed, they should be able to defend themselves.
If you had caught me before the Oct attack, we’d probably have agreed on more. All the collective punishment pre Oct was obviously war crimes, and Bibi and much of Likud should be tried and convicted as war criminals. Even with the constant war crimes (with the approval of the Palestinian people) of launching rockets at civilians, collective punishment wasn’t warranted.
All the other failed measures were better to try (walls and shit). But it’s ridiculous to sit by and not do something about the October attack and encourage these terrorists just like ignoring all their other terrorism for decades has done.
I’ve yet to hear a realistic and potentially effective solution for dealing with Hamas, other than eradicating them. But I’d love to know how the current efforts could be supplanted by something more effective.
For over two decades, tens of thousands of rockets have been lobbed into Israel with the support of the Palestinanian people who gladly elected Hamas while they did so and continued to do so to this day. This isn’t a homogenous group of innocents. That’s a Lemmy fantasy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
Currently, they run at 75% approval for the Oct. 7th attack.
There is no nation on earth who would have tolerated two decades of tens of thousands of rockets launched at civilians. And that’s while having tried walls, fences, border crossings, and on and on. All of which were decried as barbaric to Gaza (with reason), and which clearly failed to stop rocket attacks, and then October.
The twenty years of rocket attacks launched at civilians by the palestians are all war crimes. There’re no innocent parties here.
There’s only one difference between Israel and any other nation defending themselves from decades of war crimes and terrorist attacks… you can figure out what that is… just like everyone cries that they’re so passionate about the humanitarian crisis, but two of the largest humanitarian situations, Haiti and the DRC (with over 7 million displaced) get jack shit for news coverage.
People cover this conflict bc it’s trendy and religion.
They don’t continue to elect them to this day. They were elected one time, on a more moderate platform, and there hasn’t been an election since. They actually had less than 50% support before the attack, but getting bombed to shit makes you support the only group that’s willing to do something about them and fight back, do I get why they’re popularity may have risen since then.
Incidentally, that’s why bombing the crap out of civilians doesn’t stop terrorist groups. All those offers Israel is making just turns into more terrorists. Either that, or they kill all the Palestinians, which is genocide.
No people would tolerate what the Israelis have done to the Palestinians since the start of their occupation. The rockets are their only means of defense,and even those don’t do shit. Look at the numbers of dead from each side in every year. It’s not even comparavle. Israel isn’t defending themselves, they’re perpetrating the humanitarian crisis by their treatment of human beings, and then complaining when those people are pushed to the brink and lash out. Then they use it an excuse to do more genocide: displace people, take their land, and kill more children. The US did the same thing to the Native Americans, it’s the same playbook.
Yes, I know these delusions and have seen them here on Lemmy and amongst terrorist adjacent apologists all the time. Claims that the terrorists they elected aren’t really their elected government. Denying the fact that Hamas is the government of Gaza is just denying facts. People do it here because it doesn’t support the false narratives Lemmy loves so much.
The Palestinians elected Hamas, loving their war crimes like suicide bombings, blowing up bus loads of civilians, lobbing endless rockets into civilians, and cheering in the streets about it. Just like they celebrate the Oct attacks with a 75% approval level in Gaza. They didn’t trick the Palestinians into thinking they were peaceful, innocent angels, and then go “whoops our bad we are terrorists and war crimianls.” No, that’s who they elected on purpose.
Oh, and yes, the war crimes you support and apologize for as “their only defense” is just as bad as the rest of your claims. Every one of the tens of thousands of rockets fired has been a war crime. You’re an apologist for that. Take the time to sit down and realize how radicalized you already are that you think war crimes like tens of thousands of rockets laumched at civilians are the ONLY way they can defend themselves–your words. Like many here on Lemmy, you’re way down a dangerous and slippery slope.
And notice all the bitching and moaning comments, that accompany the thread nobody has a better solution for what’s going on to stop the rockets and mass terrorist attacks of the Gazan government. I’m still VERY open to hearing a realistic one. But you’re not going to.
Lastly, who are you defining as “the Palestinians”, do you count the millions in Jordan, Egypt, etc? Or do you think Gaza is all Palestinians? You diminish the term when you misuse and/or intentionally abuse the term genocide.
It’s not delusions, it’s called acknowledging facts. Fact:the last election was decades ago. Fact: Most of the population is under 18. Fact: Most of the population didn’t participate in that election. Fact: Hamas at the time was more moderate, or appeared to be, supported a two state solution and other more moderate policies. Fact: Most of the population didn’t support Hamas until Israel started doing a genocide. These are all facts. The irony of warning of a slippery slope when you’re ignoring all of these to defend an oppressive, genocidal, apartheid regime that’s killing tens of thousands more civilians, including children, than Palestine is palpable. You’re so stuck in your propaganda bubble you don’t even realize it.
Everyone knows the solution. Stop oppressing and blockading the Palestinians. Adopt a one state or two solution, give them autonomy, the ability to control their own land, power, sky, sea, trash, water, imports, etc. Either with their own state, or combine all the land into one, give equal protections to all people in a strong constitution, give representation to everyone, setup reconciliation panels to help the nation move past the crimes done and establish a new start, make treaties, etc. It was done in the UK with the Irish and South Africa. Israel thinks their situation is so special and unique, but it’s not. It’s the same settler colonial situation as all the others, except with Jewish people, so because they went through the holocaust, I guess they get a pass on genocide.
And genocide is what it is, or they’re dumb. Otherwise, what’s the plan? They’re just making more Hamas recruits by making all these orphans. You think they’ll like Israel after 30,000 dead? They’re either stupid or just plan on killing or displacing all the orphans, too, which is genocide. That’s what I’m saying.
Even before now, it looks like the same process, what they’ve been doing for decades. It’s the same as the natives in the US, which everyone would call a genocide, too, btw. It’s the same playbook. First, lots of colonialism and taking of land. Next, say they’re savage when they retaliate. Then, killing while moving them over bit by bit into smaller and farther pieces of land. Retaliate with huge violence when they try to fight back to kill off tons more and take more land. And their situation gets more desperate and they fight back more, retaliate harder, and repeat. It’s like the Nazis saying that it’s the only solution after the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising because they too dangerous to govern. No shit, stop oppressing them.
Israel’s right to defend itself
This is one of the dumbest dogwhistles in existence. Everyone knows that’s not the actual point of contention.
It actually is a huge point of contention. That misunderstanding causes a lot of profanity and anger.
It’s not though, that is just false. No one in good faith will deny that a country has a right to defend themselves from an attack.
Setting aside your defense of genocide, it’s a divided issue, but support for Palestine is higher among democrats, and especially young democrats. Biden is actively losing young voters moment by moment, and that will lose him the election if he doesn’t fix it.
You don’t know what genocide is, and you demean the term by abusing it. As do a lot of people who have misappropriated it for propaganda reasons.
And yes, I know the younger the voter, the less history and background they have on this issue, and this the more knee jerk and blindly they react to Hamas propaganda. That’s one of the main points.
Actually the more people study the history of Israel, the worse it looks. When you start diving into the terrorist groups that drove the creation of Israel, that then were forgive for their war crimes, combined with their mainstream right party, and one even became prime minister; or Britain’s betrayal of the Palestinians after they helped them fight the Ottoman Empire during the war, or the historical opinions of Jews who survived the holocaust talking about the terrible treatment of Palestinians even back in 1948, etc it doesn’t look good.
Get out of your bubble, man. And expand your sources.
If you’re citing the terrible treatment of the Palestinians in 48, then expand and look at the expulsion of the Jews from the Muslim world and the theft of all their land. Approximately 800,000+, who then fled to Israel.
The point is your one-sided perspective and cherry picking of examples for this reductive reply.
As far as the Ottoman empire, Jews lived there before it fell in WWI. Including, (GASP), Palestinian Jews, which Lemmy doesn’t even seem to realize existed. Or tall about the useless land that they purchased and transformed and THEN it became an issue with pre 48 conflict.
And if you think Britian betrayed the Palestians instead of COMPLETELY fucked the middle east hand in hand with Russia, France, and the US through incompetence, arrogance, and racism… then you’ve either not studied the subject or you’re being intellectually disingenuous.
Pretending there’s innocent parties here is an easy way to spot someone who doesn’t know what the fuck their talking about or worse is being intentionally dishonest.
I can easily roll off examples of settlers’ crimes and pre Israeli settlers, but I’m aware of plenty of Arab ones too.
I can provide a laundry list of war crimes Bibi and the Likud party should be tried and convicted for, but I can do the the same for both Gaza and the West Bank.
If you’re sure this is one-sided, then you need more and different sources.
If you really want to delve into history and issues arising, why are the Israel’s arguably the first people’s / first nation. Treated so differently worldwide than all other first nations? Hmm. LOL
Why does every Israeli argument come down to “we were oppressed and killed en masse so we’re allowed to oppress and kill en masse others”? That’s not a defense. By your logic, black people in the US should be allowed to kill white people in the South and take everything below the Mason-Dixon.
As far as the Ottoman empire, Jews lived there before it fell in WWI. Including, (GASP), Palestinian Jews, which Lemmy doesn’t even seem to realize existed. Or tall about the useless land that they purchased and transformed and THEN it became an issue with pre 48 conflict.
Lemmy does acknowledge this, you just ignore it. It actually doesn’t help your argument at all. Jewish, Christians, and Muslim Arabs lived in peace in the area for centuries. That’s a huge argument against the necessity of Israel as it’s one Jewish ethnostate and a huge argument for a one-state solution, the one I prefer myself. And no one minded the land they purchased until they started buying it from the UN without consulting the local people who actually lived there. Israel always says it was legal, but ethically it’s horrible. Imagine your landlord selling your stuff and land without consulting you after promising you he’d sell it to you soon if you rebel against your old landlord.
And if you think Britian betrayed the Palestians instead of COMPLETELY fucked the middle east hand in hand with Russia, France, and the US through incompetence, arrogance, and racism… then you’ve either not studied the subject or you’re being intellectually disingenuous.
Ya, they did both, but that’s unrelated. What’s your point here? My point was that there’s a reason Palestinians were angry at being promised their own state and then Britain and France giving huge portions to what would become Israel. It explains a lot of later actions that Israel doesn’t like to give context for, like when they’re attacked by surrounding nations (after all, that’s where the Palestinian refugees end up running to and affecting). Not sure what your point was.
Pretending there’s innocent parties here is an easy way to spot someone who doesn’t know what the fuck their talking about or worse is being intentionally dishonest.
There’s no completely innocent party. I mean, Hamas sucks. But the power dynamics make things more clear. All the power to change things lies in Israel, who has an actual government, state, military, advanced defense technology, etc and controls everything about the Palestinian territories.
I can easily roll off examples of settlers’ crimes and pre Israeli settlers, but I’m aware of plenty of Arab ones too.
I’d bet you money they don’t really compare. That’d like saying I can say plenty of times the Native Americans did horrible things to the white settlers to the US, but I can tell you 100% that one side was way worse than the other when you factor in scale of damage, power, and historical context.
If you really want to delve into history and issues arising, why are the Israel’s arguably the first people’s / first nation. Treated so differently worldwide than all other first nations? Hmm. LOL
Treated differently how? They get special treatment, I suppose, but I have a feeling that’s not what you mean. They’re condemned as much as other nations. Probably should be condemned more, up there with Russia, but they got the US backing them up. Other than that, they’re brought up a lot because 1) people are more anti-colonialosm now than they used to be and 2) most of the English-speaking internet is from the US and it’s allies who donate tons of money to Israel, so unlike other places of horror, a lot of the citizens who speak up can actually do something about it, and 3) I actually don’t think people speak up enough. People have generally ignored the plight of Palestinians for decades, part of the reason they’re so angry lol.
We are getting into so much that it’s hard to reply to everything immediately… I will just do chunks when I have the time and though we clearly, deeply, disagree, thank you for the conversation.
Why does every Israeli argument come down to “we were oppressed and killed en masse so we’re allowed to oppress and kill en masse others”? That’s not a defense. By your logic, black people in the US should be allowed to kill white people in the South and take everything below the Mason-Dixon.
I was not trying to make that argument. I was indicating that you were leaving out relative and pertinent counter-facts. Being oppressed does not give one the right to oppress others. But when you hear about stolen Palestinian (Arab) land (which DID and DOES happen to this day), you never hear about stolen Jewish land and exile from the same conflict as part of this conflict. Neither existed in a vacuum. Neither justified the other. But with many claims and views on Lemmy, only one side informs the thinking. I take exception to that.
I am really trying to be clear here. The collective punishment that the Palestinians have suffered since the second intifada is war crimes. Literally, collective punishment is a war crime. Bibi, and many in Likud (whom I detest with a passion rivaled only by my revulsion at American republicans and neo-libs… capitalists…) are ALL war criminals, should be tried and convicted for it. Yes, I know Israel isn’t a signatory to the ICC… idc. They should all be convicted of their war crimes.
But I will not pretend that the Palestinians were some angelic group of peace-loving people who have been nothing but oppressed and have no blood AND war crimes on their hands.
Evaluated in a vacuum, anybody would understand many of these radicalized anti-Israel views. Because Israel is GUILTY of WAR CRIMES. I am not excusing or defending it. I WILL debate some horrors of war, though as not being clear-cut war-crimes. Especially Hamas’ co-location war crimes, which are the worst of the conflict as they have been committed for decades with nobody doing anything about it.
But I do not view the conflict in a vacuum, and sincerely believe it makes zero sense to do so. Here’s a severely abridged list of things that affect my views and thinking on the conflict:
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pre-WW I, in the Ottoman empire, Palestine was not a deep and widespread national identity. Most Arabs (the majority of people in the Ottoman Empire identified tribally or by family). And Palestine was a place filled with Christians, Muslims, and Jews, with relatively low levels of conflict (but also not a peaceful Disney wonderland, as I have seen pro-ported in some claims). And when the immigration of Jews increased post 1908, so did resentment and hatred directed towards them similar to all anti-immigrant behavior (like Brexit, America/Mexico, etc.) You can find historical articles on how Jews moving in lowers the value of the land, and how undesirable they are, directed as much at the immigrant aspect as it was the religious. Much like white neighborhoods trying to keep blacks out in the US, nobody wanted the new Jewish Immigrants… or you could think the Irish influx of America around the turn of the century. Anyway, many definitely minded the Jewish immigrants and people did mind the land they purchased.
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Historic claims are arbitrary and relative, to a degree. What do I mean? For instance, who’s claims do we honor? Israel’s biblical claims to the land (as an Athiest, this is not compelling to me. archaeological and objectively supported claims are more compelling, even so, who the fuck cares what happened back then?) The Crusaders who lost the land (should it be returned?)? The Ottoman empire (who I could debate on the side of Suleiman the Great, was one of the best times for the region)? People, with this conflict, often pick the most convenient claim to support the point they are making? Maybe we should use the most recent legal recognition of Israel as a Jewish homeland and state? I think there is a very strong reason to use that one, but admit it’s debatable, and am not saying that there was not shady shit going on in the creation and recognition of the state. I will also say, MOST countries have shady pasts and formations. Surely we can agree on that too?
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There were clearly horrific crimes during the Nakba. And even recognition of the Nakba has been suppressed in the West and especially in Israel. Most Americans do not even know the term Nakba. It is like how most Americans do not know that Central Park was an African American area of properties that was literally stolen from them to make the park. Or the ignorance about how many other American African American successful communities that were literally razed and occupied or erased from history and memory as best as the criminals could. Israel to this day has not unsealed numerous files on Nakba operations. I do not excuse these, but also do not find it a convincing argument to dismantle Israel as a state anymore.
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I am highly open to a discussion and debate on it though. A meaningful, respectful one, not a normal Lemmy world news one where I get death threats regularly and comments to “fist yourself you fucker”. LMFAO.
Shit man, this is already getting too long. I’m sorry. My point early on when I was taking part in Lemmy World News (back in Oct) was that this is a SUPER deep and complicated issue. I am open to a respectful and intellectually honest discussion and debate. I am just not sure how to shrink it down.
Should we start a separate thread elsewhere, for people who want to discuss things honestly? Or even a community, so we can mod it and remove hate and propaganda…
Maybe we just leave it here in this thread and keep chatting like this. I don’t know, what do you think? If you just want me to (insert hatred here) lemmie know so I dont’ waste anymore time. ;)
Cheers
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Genocide is action or intent to destroy a people in whole or in part because of their status as a member of that group. Israeli officials have made it clear numerous times that their ultimate goal is the removal of the Palestinian people from Palestine, which will result in mass death and destruction of their culture. This is textbook genocide.
You’re absolutely right that outside of “the lemmy bubble” you may find a shitload of unintelligent dumbasses. People incapable of critical thinking or the ability to form a thought of their own.
That was eloquent and a well supported argument. I’m convinced!
A lot of us believe in Palestinian’s right to defend themselves as well. I work in a city, among many people that have no idea what Lemmy even is, there is a Palestinian flag on my work’s building and we feel grief at the atrocities committed by Israel. You’re right it isn’t cut and dry, but the support for Israel is at the lowest I have ever seen in my life.
Let these people think this is public opinion. Let them vote for Trump. They hate dissenting opinions, they’re about to find out what that looks like when you support Hamas because the GOP is looking at them like they wrote the playbook. This is a clear case of the Left having the leopards circling and looking for some faces. They’re starting on university campus and will keep eating lol.
These people are just so gullible.
Soooo fucking naive.
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I feel like I once again have to ask why? Why does Israel need these weapons so badly that you have to bypass even Congressional approval? Republicans wouldn’t exactly oppose such an approval, they haven’t shown any lack of support for supporting Israel, just Ukraine. And Israel certainly doesn’t need the weapons for defense, as claimed by the State Department in the article.
Israel is very handedly and with minimal resistance killing thousands of Palestinians. They don’t really need any additional arsenals.
Unless this is in preparation for Netanyahu’s claimed invasion of Lebanon and beyond? Is Biden openly supporting the expansion of the conflict?
This is my question as well. Is Israel running out of weapons? Maybe they could stop blowing the fuck out of hospitals and shit.
I’ve been awfully understanding of the complexities of geopolitics for Biden. Publicly supporting an ally isn’t a deal-breaker for me, but to do an end run around Congress to give more weapons and money to one of the best armed countries in the middle east so that they can commit more atrocities is a really bad look.
Still voting for him because fuck Trump and fuck fascism, but this is really hurting my opinion of him.
I think they are systematically mass tank shelling houses in Northern and now Middle Gaza.
They are using an insane amount of ammo because their goal is complete destruction of all infrastructure so the Palestinians have nowhere to return to.
I’m really hoping someone runs against him in the primary. I would say anyone, but then I remember anti-vaxxer extraordinaire RFK Jr is planning on running and also orb lady is still out there. So maybe not anyone, but there’s plenty of actually good candidates that could run against Biden.
I don’t think any of them have a realistic shot at beating a sitting President in a primary. I’m voting not Trump no matter what, and I’ll be happy to vote for someone other than Biden, but realistically this is the match up. Biden will get the nomination and the supreme court will eventually rule that Trump can’t be kept off the ballot. I’ve accepted it.
At least I think it will be really fucking hard to campaign or raise funds from the hot seat in a criminal court pretty much every day leading up to the election.
Who is there though? In four more years we need another person to run against Trump… again…
Obama was plucked out of obscurity and was an okay President. There are plenty of people who could stand up and get the job done, but about 5 minutes after this election is the time to start vetting them and making sure they have a better position on the middle east.
Also if Trump doesn’t win this time he’s done.
I honestly think if Trump was put in prison it would increase support and donations from average fans of his, it helps seal the idea that he is a persecuted outsider fighting against the deep state.
The end goal of the money, besides grifting, is to get him elected. That’s just not going to happen if he’s convicted. I really don’t think it will happen because he’ll be so busy with 3 or 5 or whatever criminal trials that he just won’t have the time or ability to campaign effectively.
So honestly I’m so for these saps throwing their money at him to set it on fire. Better trump than someone competent.
Even RFK Jr is a staunch Israel supporter too, so no escape there
Better the devil you know. Unfortunately, I know both devils intimately well.
Israel has more influence over the US than American citizens.
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The absolute refusal to look at the mountain of video evidence of genocide is appalling.
They do see it. They know. They’re enacting this genocide because they want to. The US government is and always has been genocidal.
People saying how can the US support genocide, the question is how can we stop them from supporting a genocide?
Why is this called a weapons sale?
Because it is a sale that was planned before the Gaza slaughter. Congress does not approve sales. Congress could pass a resolution to block the sale but they don’t approve them.
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So why can’t Biden sign an executive order to cancel student debt?
Zionism is more important
Regarding the “it’s not aid, it’s a sale” point that some have brought up, we give israel billions of dollars every single year and biden has pledged 100+ billion more since the ramping up of the genocide. Whether they’re paying for it now or not, they’re doing it with our money.
Question, if I vote for Biden and he wins and keeps supporting genocide, does that make me partly responsible for these kids dying? Don’t love the prospect of having dead inocent children’s blood on my hands.
Your choice is is kill a little or kill a lot. Trump has promised to deport all Muslims and in response to Palestine deaths, said he wants to see how it plays out.
just to be clear is Biden the kill a little option or the kill a lot one?
I guess as guilty as not voting for Biden and arms sales continuing regardless of who is in power. Your tax money still foots the bill and the cheque is in your collective names.
No wait if whatever I do child murders stay the same then it’s not my fault, I’m only responsible for stuff that I have control over, by definition. I’m worried about how much influence I personally have over how many innocent Palestinian kids are murdered.
A little bit, like saying German citizens were responsible for the holocaust for not standing up against the Nazis. They should have but when faced with violent repression you don’t necessarily blame them for not doing more. There is widespread knowledge of the military-industrial complex and the global stream of death for profit, but how many people are blocking ports to stop weapons shipments? We can vote for whoever but there is so much more that needs to be done.
Which is kind of true right? I mean aren’t German citizens a bit to blame for the holocaust? And in my hypothetical case we’d be even worse since we’d be actively voting to keep the holocaust alive not just being passive observers.
I think so, at least partially, average German citizens did know what was happening, plenty of people did resist, especially earlier on, with the brutality of the Nazis it’s hard to say if they could have done more.
Today I don’t think there is a politician who would have much of a chance to win that wouldn’t support Israel at least as much as Biden, so I would say a person doesn’t share much blame just for voting. We can vote for whoever but there is more we can do, like boycotting companies that support Israel or organizing actions aimed at stopping arms shipments.
US elections are very much a “best worst choice” as the candidate is chosen by the party machine, and selected to best meet the party’s need and win by at least 1 vote.
If you voted for Obama, your responsible for the drone bombing deaths of children.
If you voted for Bush, you’re responsible for the children who died in Iraq.
If you voted for Trump, you’re an idiot but I digress. If you are an American who votes, you’ve elected people who authorize military action that leads to civilian death.
vote Biden to make things better he is not Trump
man…that really is the situation Im in, huh. Fkn surreal
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Yeah that’s all accurate. Also under increasing pressure from Biden. Not sure how anyone serious can blame Biden for Israel’s response, though. They have a national mandate similar to the US after 9/11. You think the president of France or something could have called off George W. from Iraq?
No. At any rate, even if the current right wing leadership on Israel literally genocides every Palestinians, the US is not going to let Israel deplete its readiness for war with Iran . If anything, America will likely use this opportunity to increase Israel’s defense preparedness, just as we have been doing with Kiev and Taiwan. After all, right now, doing so is a proportionate response, from Iran’s vantage, to Iran’s sponsoring of Hamas.
I agree Israel’s ongoing prosecution, to such extent, is out of proportion. Unfortunately, Hamas has apparently erected tunnel warfare capabilities that were beyond what US and Israeli intelligence knew of, according to NYT reporting, and also, and this is the big one, America doesn’t control Israel’s national defenses.
The middleeast is undeniably the single most important region of the world as far as global security and Israel is undeniably the only (flawed) democracy in the region.
I don’t know what card sheep in this thread think Biden has to play with Israel, here. There is literally no appetite in Washington from anyone to abandon Israel as it will 100% lead to an Iran-Israel war that might kill a hundred million people. Like let’s get real about the stakes here. There aren’t, 5,000,000 people in all of Palestine. That’s half of Iran’s capital city, which Israel will turn into a parking lot before it surrenders to the “supreme leader” of the backwards ass shithole of conservative nationalism that is Iran.
