Nowadays, the absolute vast majority of games that I play are shit tbh.
This is why I pirate games first to try them out. I wanna be very clear that if I think a game is good I buy it, no questions asked.
However, since most games don’t have demos or trials, I don’t want to feel like I’ve wasted money so I look to piracy so that I can try them out before making a purchase.
AITAH?
No. Intellectual property is not real, so nothing is being stolen by you.
If it’s a small developer, and you like the game, make sure to support them if you can. If it’s a mega studio, don’t feel bad about not paying anything.
That’s my personal policy at least.
Intellectual property is not real?
So unless I make something physical I am not making anything real? So all my work up to the point of a plant being actually built is not real?
Doing anything on a PC or smartphone is not real.
Inventing a train of thought that cures every known desease and mental illness is simply not real - because you can’t touch it. This is the equivalent of dark ages church logic.
You are being intentionally obtuse. It’s not that the thing itself literally does not exist at all, it’s that the ownership of ideas is not real. When you steal a physical item the original owner is deprived of that item. When you copy an idea the original “owner” still has access to it.
I find it funny you’re calling him intentionally obtuse right after you seem to just simplify theivery at whether something physical is stolen. If you’re basing it off of something being stolen or not, IP is used to protect the realized gains off of an idea. Yeah you aren’t stealing a physical something, but you are robbing the creator of what the item is valued at. It is exactly the issue that you can’t own an idea that IP is usually heavily protected. Ironically, the intention is to help new ideas(and their profiting worth) from being stolen by someone (or something ie Coporations) with better means to distribute and profit off of the idea. Otherwise, why wouldn’t I just get a copy of a game, underpriced it, and sell it as cheap as I wanted? I’ve put no thought or labor into actualized the idea, so I have no reason to price it beyond my initial investment. It why when someone (or something) sells full rights to their IP, it can be worth millions. They don’t care about the idea. They care about what the idea can provide in the future.
To draw a parallel, saying IP isn’t real is like saying currency has no worth. On the surface, duh of course currency isn’t actually worth anything. It’s not like people can (practically) eat a dollar or make shoes out of a dollar, but we’ve (generally) collectively decided it’s worth something. It instils confidence that when I walk into a store, my currency has a conversion rate of so many dollars per good. If thousands of people added millions of dollars into their bank accounts by just “copying” the electronic money, no one has lost money, but the value of the currency is deflated by those actions because there’s nothing stopping everyone from from just adding millions to their accounts. The confidence that people will be harshly dealt with for deflating the currency like that is one of the innate things that gives currencies (and IP’s) their value. Handwaving it away by saying it isn’t actually real is also just being obtuse.
you are robbing the creator of what the item is valued at
If I value the item at $0 then I have robbed them of $0.
why wouldn’t I just get a copy of a game, underpriced it, and sell it as cheap as I wanted?
We already do that. It is called piracy. We take it and sell it for as cheap as we want ($0).
the value of the currency is deflated by those actions because there’s nothing stopping everyone from from just adding millions to their accounts
I don’t care if the value of IP is deflated. I already believe it to be zero so that doesn’t change anything. Ideas should be free to be shared.
And before you say something like, “then nothing new will ever get made” just remember you are on Lemmy. The developers make it because they want to, not because of the money. People can still make things without profit incentive. In fact I think the world would be a much better place if we had less creations focused on making money and were left with only creators who are driven by passion rather than profit.
You can also steal physical items and claim their value is 0. What does this have to do with IP specifically?
If I value the item at $0 then I have robbed them of $0.
Luckily we live in reality, where thieves don’t get to arbitrarily determine the values of their plunder.
Pirates absolutely can and do arbitrarily determine the value of their plunder. As evidenced by this post.
You can disagree with it, but piracy will always be a part of reality.
FOSS is made because people want it to be made and made available. People who make games and art vary between it purely wanting to be made and wanting to make a profit off of that. If you’re dense enough to think saying you value something at $0 and then still enjoying it like the other people willing to support the IP, then you’re an asshole.
There is a balance between what the creator is allowed to value their idea and what people are willing to pay for that idea. If they can’t find a middle ground, then the transaction shouldn’t occur. If you force that transaction by stealing their idea and efforts, you’re being a thief. What you use to justify your actions is up to you, but you’re a thief nonetheless.
If you’re dense enough to think saying you value something at $0 and then still enjoying it like the other people willing to support the IP, then you’re an asshole.
This isn’t even a coherent sentence. But I’m assuming you mean I’m an asshole for enjoying something without paying when other people do pay? Except if I enjoy something I do pay for it. Just because I don’t think people should own ideas doesn’t mean I don’t support creators when I enjoy something.
If you force that transaction by stealing their idea and efforts, you’re being a thief. What you use to justify your actions is up to you, but you’re a thief nonetheless.
And no, by law I am not a thief. A thief is someone who commits theft, and theft is “the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.” Copyright infringement does not deprive the owner of it, it is simply a copy. At least in the United States where I live copyrighted works are not considered stolen property. You can call me an asshole if you want but by definition I am no thief.
He says it is not real, so it can not be stolen. That is a pretty simple message. What am I getting wrong? He says nothing about ownership. It just does not exist. So don’t tell me I am obtuse when the maximum is that the person was ambiguous.
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That would be a
ecumenicalphilosophical matter.
The results of your ideas are real, the outcomes and impacts are real. The mental labor you do is valuable, but none of it is “property.”
If your thoughts and ideas and concepts are property that can be stolen, then please explain how you can be deprived of them.
Thinking hard about something is labor, but it’s not property, it can’t possibly be property, because it lacks all of the aspects typically required to define property.
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IP laws are not the only way to ensure a creator is compensated for their work. Money isn’t the only possible compensation, and modern IP law doesn’t protect most small time creators. It protects mega-corps and their monopolies on content/products/services.
It stifles competition and progress, not enhances it.
I used to think this way, then I realized physical property is not real either. Both are defined by the state, recorded on paper somewhere, and protected by force.
Just because you can actually physically go to my property does not change the fact that it is only my property because I have a deed.
I’m still not sure how to feel about IP but I’m less dismissive of it for now.
Let’s word it differently then. Physical property is literally real, like, you can go to it. IPs are not a resource. The game devs do not run out of copies of a game because OP pirated them. They remain at an infinite supply. If someone breaks into your house and makes off with your microwave, you are now short a microwave; If you pirate software, the developer is not short in any stock of software
Possession of property isn’t the same as property itself. Although I agree with you that I am sceptical of property in general, at least physical property makes some sense when defined. Intellectual property just makes absolutely no sense.
With intellectual property there is at least (by default) a direct link between the work necessary to create an item and its ownership. With physical items the initial ownership is necessarily predicated on having controlled a means of production.
I can create an IP and I do not need to spend hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars to do so. But I cannot create a substantial physical item without paying the people who own the materials and the factories for the privilege of doing so. Why is previous ownership such a critical factor in ownership of new items, separate from the work to create them?
Intellectual property laws have their own issues but at least with regard to them conceptually, intellectual property is more “pure” than physical property.
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Your ethics are on point.
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People should be rewarded for their mental labor, but that’s not the same as saying they have created intellectual property.
A thought or concept is not an object that can be stolen. An idea cannot be a scarce resource that is used up.
If concepts or ideas can be “stolen” then that means somebody is being deprived of them. But unless you somehow erased the idea from all parts of that person’s brain and transfered it into yours, nobody has been deprived of anything, and thus nothing has been stolen.
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You cannot be “deprived of profit.” That makes no sense. Nobody is owed any profit for simply trying to sell something.
If I create art to sell, and nobody buys it, I haven’t been robbed of anything at all. And that fact doesn’t change if somebody walks past my art booth, looks at my painting, admires it, and then walks away. They didn’t “steal” anything from me. I haven’t been deprived of anything. Unless you want to make the claim that they are a thief now that they enjoyed my painting without paying my anything for it.
If that’s true, then everybody who walks through an art fair or gallery but doesn’t buy any art is a robber and should be arrested and charged.
The idea that IP protects the little folks who are struggling artists is a capitalist myth perpetuated primarily by corporate advocates that are the actual beneficiaries of IP laws. It’s used by mega-corps to lock down massive amounts of content, make billions off of it, exploit actual artists to perpetuate their monopoly on creative expressions of characters.
It’s also used by pharma corps to artifically restrict supply of critical drugs to the population in order to make billions in profits and enrich their shareholders.
And the whole, “nobody would create anything if copyright/patents didn’t exist” is yet another capitalist myth, disproved by countless examples. As if the entire internet doesn’t run on the back of Linux, a free and open source project spanning literal decades, Wikipedia, the largest single encyclopedia of human knowledge in dozens of languages, all the millions of pages of fan fiction and hobbiest artists that have created passion projects with no expectation of making money. Etc etc.
Don’t buy into the propaganda.
If intellectual property is not real, then why do you support the idea of paying small developers instead of large developers? Their intellectual property is just as fake as large studios, right?
I really wish pirates were more honest with themselves. Just admit that you’re taking something that doesn’t belong to you and own it. I pirate content all the time, but I don’t do the mental gymnastics to justify it. Just admit that you stole something and that you don’t care, it’s not that hard. I have an old PC in my closet that has about 200 movies and a bunch of cracked games on it that I’ve pirated over the years, and I don’t care that I stole them. The Robin Hood complex some pirates have is just weird, imo. You’re not sticking it to The Man; The Man is still bankrolling more per week than the team who made the content you stole is making in a year, regardless of your seed ratio.
By the way, large studios also have developers who rely on their jobs to put food on the table, just like the small studios. If you think anybody at EA aside from the C-Suite execs are significantly richer than the average indie dev, you’d be mistaken. Next time you’re playing a pirated AAA game, look at your character; the guy who spent several weeks of his life sculpting and rigging that model is probably just as concerned about paying his rent on time as you are.
By the way, this isn’t entirely directed at you, specifically. Just my thoughts on the general attitude I see in a lot of piracy communities lately.
Just admit that you stole something and that you don’t care, it’s not that hard.
You are not wrong, but maybe just a bit of perspective:
In my city, you can go to the public library, borrow a DVD, take it home, watch it. 100% legal. 100% free. No library membership fees. And they have multiple copies of most DVDs, so it’s not like it’s some lottery to use the service.
It feels a lot like downloading a movie without paying anyone to watch it. The only difference is you gotta go outside. Oh, and no guilt tripping.
Anyway, what’s my point? Well piracy is only illegal because some people (not everyone) decided that everyone is going to pay an equal, but not necessarily an equitable, share to fund the development of said IP (unless you have a library in your area to counter this, partially). Worse, that everyone will keep paying a very small group of people money we’ll after the development of said IP has been paid off. Even worse, that small group of people will use their profits to corrupt the legal system to ensure that that protectionism continues to serve their benefit, not others… Point being, you can pirate, and care… care a lot.
Victims are created when piracy affects small production houses struggling to make ends meet. Victims are created of everyone else when the law is abused beyond it’s original purpose to squeeze consumers.
So you too should be honest and not call it theft. Piracy is piracy, good or bad. To compare it to the crime of theft is to perpetuate the marketing of those to stand from a black and white view on the matter.
It is theft, but the argument is better framed as to whether or not it’s moral theft. Most people who pirate feel comfortable pirating from larger corporations over small time creators/groups, with the usual justifications you’ve provided above. Personally, I’ve justified it at times because I couldn’t afford to purchase the thing, which leads to another argument of “if I wasn’t going to buy it in the first place, is it actually effecting them”.
There is no argument to be made, however, where it isn’t true that if you were to have purchased it, the owner of the idea will make more off of it. Whether you care or not about that owner getting more is a different argument, but you are robbing them of value for the idea, however little that value might have been.
I’m not arguing for or against pirating, but people in the comments saying it isn’t theivery really seem to be arguing whether stealing is wrong or not. Call it what it is and go back to the argument people have been having for thousands of years.
Which, I realize I didn’t address libraries. Taxes pay for libraries to operate, and then the library pays to have copies of the works. If no one wants to read my book, libraries aren’t going to just go out and buy thousands of copies. And trying to tackle libraries would also start to erode arguments for reselling something. And to bring it back to the OP, I’ve read books in a library before that I enjoyed enough to purchase a copy of my own. I’ve also read books I haven’t. But someone purchased that book for me to rent, and in a small part, I’ve paid for that book myself by paying taxes.
The only difference is you gotta go outside.
No, the difference is that you’re expected to return it. You’re not supposed to keep it forever. That’s why there’s a “due by” date on checked-out materials.
Absolutely wild how stuff like this is downvoted here. People are disconnected from reality as if the world is a little hippy community. reminds me of this, have fun reading.
That link is chillingly hilarious.
Makes me think of a simple job like garbage man; they drive up the pay to encourage people into it. So what’s the incentive without capital?
In theory, you see the job needs to be done, you do it for the good of the community.
No worries, I am sure the local diaper boy will handle that.
Jesus Christ.
I think… I think I understand conservatives a little now.
I do not understand them - the same way I can not understand those delusional socialism nutjobs.
It’s not mental gymnastics. Why is it so hard to believe that people genuinely don’t believe in intellectual property? It has nothing to do with “sticking it to the man.” I just do not believe in IP, full stop.
And piracy is not stealing, it is making a copy. When you steal a physical item the original owner is deprived of that item. When you copy something the original “owner” still has access to it.
Not everyone thinks the same way you do. In fact you sound like a terrible person if you genuinely believe that what you’re doing is wrong but you’re doing it anyway.
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You can also believe in Santa, how does it matter, to the whole society, what you believe?
For the people discussing here: remember that the morality of an act depends on the act itself, the context where it happens, and the moral premises. It does not depend on how you phrase or label the act.
With that in mind: since I define arseholery as “actions or behaviour that cause more harm to someone else than they benefit the agent”, and there’s practically no harm being caused by OP’s actions, I do not think that OP is being an arsehole.
It’s a victimless “crime”. Especially since OP is saying they will go on to buy games they like.
Good point!
No. Demos are rare and games are expensive.
I tend to find I can make a pretty darn informed decision off of Let’s Plays, quick looks, etc. in a world without demos.
That still can’t inform you properly on how a game ‘feels’ to play. I’m very tempted by Alan Wake 2, but having bounced off many other similar games because of how they control has me pining for a demo. I’ll not be dropping 50 quid without being able to try it first
A good quick look or early game LP with commentary will fill that in. The Giant Bomb format has one person asking another a series of questions, and game feel usually comes up. ACG reviews so many games that it’s more than likely he covered it in a video. If you find a couple of YouTube channels where the reviewers or LPers have similar tastes as you, it ends up being as good a method as any to make an informed purchase. Demos can also sometimes be misleading, depending on the game. There’s no perfect answer here, but there isn’t for any other purchase either.
I dunno about that. Another person can describe a game however they see fit, and they may even be thorough, but what someone might define as clunky controls might feel fine to me. I can’t know how a game feels to play unless I play it for myself. Most of the games I regret buying were games I bought based on what youtubers and reviewers were saying
It’s not perfect. Nothing is. But it does make for a pretty informed decision. As long as you don’t abuse it, there’s always 2 hour refund policies as well. I don’t think it makes the OP an asshole to pirate a game as a demo, but I’ve been burned so few times by this strategy that I’ve never considered some other means of trying out a game to be necessary. If you’re really unsure, you can wait for a sale, too.
If OP doesn’t spend money, and pirates the game, the devs get no money If OP Doesn’t spend money or pirate, the devs still get no money. It doesn’t actually matter to them whether or not you have the game, only whether you pay
And you should pay if you think it’s a worthwhile experience, but piracy frees you from gambling on the marketing tactics made by corporations. I don’t even know for sure that the reviewer I’m listening to isn’t sponsored by the devs. If a person cannot afford to buy a game, they should just pirate. It’s a sale the devs would have never made to begin with. If a person needs to make sure their money is being well-spent, it’s the same thing with a bit more financial give. Ultimately, game devs can either release demos, or let pirates do it themselves
I just think of all the poor souls who actually spent money on Arkham Knights or Babylon’s Fall
You’ll know if the reviewer is sponsored by the game, because they legally have to disclose it. ACG probably takes one or two steps more than necessary to prove he’s incorruptible.
The type of person who buys Arkham Knights or Babylon’s Fall despite the plethora of warning signs is either such a fan of Batman or Platinum that they can’t help themselves, or they’re like my friend who needs to see every major shit show in gaming. Neither game sold many copies.
If that works for you, great! I’m going to keep pirating games without demos though.
Nope. What you’ve highlighted is the need for more game devs to create free demos so people can try the games before they buy them.
If you download a game, find you really like it, and then buy it, you’re not harming anyone nor are you withholding funds from artists.
Does anyone else remember bringing home free trials on floppy disks? Like you get the first level of Wolfenstein or Commander Keen and you just play that over and over because you don’t have any money.
A bit before my manufacture date but as a kid there used to be CD ROMs in cereal boxes which had games like Tonka, Hot Wheels, Timon and Pumba, Rainbow Fish, etc. Those were hype.
Chex Quest was straight gasoline.
No, not at all. Games used to have demos and trial versions, like basically all games, but game studios used to have to actually finish making a game before they shipped it. Trying before you bought was the business model of the whole industry. Now so many games are shipped in such bad condition they wouldn’t dare let you try it first. Trying before you buy is just prudent, as long as you actually buy the ones you like enough to play through.
There were plenty of demos of amazing first levels and absolute trash as the rest of the game.
Blatantly lying as marketing is as old as videogames themselves.
Used to do that for decades. Nowadays with steam i just return the game.
I don’t trust the refund policy. If they have a so called refund policy why not force every published to add a 1-2 hour free trial instead? We should be able to try games and evaluate before the money leaves our pockets.
Try it, steam makes it so easy to refund stuff assuming you played less than couple hours and bought it fairly recently. And forcing companies to make trials isn’t as easy as you think. Some indie games still have trial versions but those are pretty much impossible to find in AAA titles as they obviously want people to just buy them and play past the return window.
Edit: Also on your post, who cares? Lot of companies certainly don’t have morals and do whatever they can to milk their users. If you don’t wanna pay for it then don’t, its better than not playing anyway. Buy something if you can afford to and wanna support the studio, especially indie studios who rely on that income to produce more games and the money actually go to the people who deserve it. I personally just grab a bunch of stuff on sale and play one when I feel like it, although a lot of them remains untouched to this date.
Tldr: don’t overthink it, do whatever works for you
They don’t really market their refund policy. And, I know they have a 2 hour playing window. However, what if you’re really into the game and you play 2.5h non-stop not realizing and they you decide to refund but can’t. Sometimes it can take up to 10 hours to actually evaluate if a game is good. Some games have tutorials which can take 1-2 hours if you read everything and play at a slow pace at which point you’re locked out of refund. I don’t support their refund policy at all actually.
I would say its reasonable as it applies to all games even the indie ones that can end within an hr so any higher and people might start abusing it.
Because the “default path” is different, a free trial would have way less conversion than the current system.
With a free trial you have to take an action to buy it. With a refund you have to take an action to be refunded.
Or they could do it like SaaS, where you’re automatically charged at the end of the trial unless you decide to cancel before… But that’s a bit convoluted and it wouldn’t bring much compared to the current system.
Personally unless it’s a dirt cheap game I do enough research before buying and I rarely have to refund. But I definitely refund if the game is not at the level of quality that I expected.
Don’t trust the software company to do what they have made legally sound claims to doing, and that hundreds of thousands of people have said they’ve done.
But do trust the script kiddies writing crackers not to install invisible keyloggers and ad trackers.
I pirated more in the past than I do now. Big difference is that I can now afford it to pay for games.
Currently I’m more a retro games pirate. Older games are pretty much harmless to pirate.
You pirate with the intention to buy. IMO you’re one of the best possible pirates. A lot of people might never purchase a game unless it’s really necessary for online play or something.
I love supporting good games and awesome studios. What I don’t like it getting screwed because screenshots and trailers look cool and they game turn out to be shit and still cost me $50.
You’ve got to use reviews and video content. Get really acquainted with a few reviewers and what games they really like, what they don’t, and their general mindset. Even if a reviewer doesn’t like a game, if you understand their taste and preferences you can even tell when you might like it. Cross reference with general public opinion, or perhaps the development history of the studio and if you’ve played and enjoyed their previous games.
But basing anything off ONLY screenshots and trailers is a horrible trap and piracy isn’t the exclusive way to find that out.
I get what you’re saying but do you realize how time consuming and cumbersome that is, even if it’s the proper way to do it.
It depends how often you want to buy new games. I regularly consume gaming media for fun, so often I only need to watch a review or two to get a solid idea of if it’s worth a purchase, so maybe 10-20 minutes, and often times you can just listen to the review in the background of doing other stuff. And I only need to do that maybe once or twice a month at the absolute most, I’m not super rich or anything.
This is all implying I already have good trusted review sources. I’d recommend ACG Gaming if you don’t know any yet, he’s a smart writer and goes very in depth in his reviews. He buys all of the games he reviews for integrity purposes.
Of course, if you’re being absolutely honest that you always buy a game you like after pirating to try it, I think that’s just fine, I have no qualms about using piracy as a tool that way, this is just how I do it.
Retro games are also widely unavailable, and often times when they are available, it’s only on a subscription service for a machine that I don’t want to play them on. Imagine instead if these companies steered into what their customers actually want. That would sure be nice.
Nope. Ive been burned on several games (back 4 blood anyone?) And tired of losing. Maybe the game isn’t for me, maybe it won’t run on my system. I have several games I bought after trying them from torrents: rimworld, farcey series, fallout 4 (love/own 3 and NV, needed to test 4). Several games that I really like I’ve bought a second copy for a shared account so my kid can play them also.
Nothing wrong with trying before you buy in my opinion. My library is full of games I r never installed. :(
Spot on!
Me too. Latest one is battlebit. Game looked fun. Plays very well. Balance is shit.
Nah that’s essentially the same as buying and refunding. If you can’t afford a purchase it’s perfectly fine.
Nope
Genuine question, is enaulating older systems, with ROMs/ISOs you get off the Internet, considered piracy? No current systems, only older ones. Newest one is PS3. Is this piracy?
Edit: ok, thank you, everyone. I emulate very old games because it’s a nostalgia thing. Games I played when I was very young and I wanted to play them again. I don’t emulate anything new as I have a huge collection of physical copies of games I played on newer systems like the PS4.
It is supposed to be, technically. IIRC, you’re supposed to copy your own stuff - such as BIOS and ISOs - rather than download others, which is why things like PCSX2 doesn’t natively come with a BIOS.
Technically yes. But if the games are no longer even being sold I’d argue that it’s perfectly fine to do it anyway.
Yes it’s piracy. And it’s likely illegal depending on your country. But I don’t think it’s unethical.
I personally don’t think so. You’re free to do what ever you want with any system that is obsolete and not supported.
If there is no demo that’s on the devs. Also you could just refund on Steam, that’s what I do, can’t be arsed to download the game twice really. If it’s good it stays, if not down it goes.
A lot of people talk about the steam refund policy however I just don’t trust that I will get my money back even though it’s a “non questions asked” kinda deal. If I’ve given them $80 for a game, they can easily decide to just keep it…
It’s also time sensitive, and sometimes I end up wasting a couple of hours just tweaking settings, and character customization
Simple solution: don’t do that until you’ve decided to keep it
I’m the firm believer of piracy is a service issue. Lot of time that piracy is rampant, it’s almost always due to accessibility issue, mainly cost in country with weaker currency. A $60 game will cost me about 15 days of food, that’s inaccessible for a lot of people in my country and frankly hard to justify, and if there’s not even an option for localisation of the price, whether people pirate or not, they basically leaving money on the table.
Steam used to be cool because everyone follow the sane pricing suggestion, but nowadays publisher decided to earn less money by charging more for their mediocre game, and then blame piracy for the lackluster earning.
I don’t pirate myself, i have very less time to game nowadays, but i don’t think piracy is an ass move, especially when cracked version run better than paid version due to stupid drm.
They’re often forced to equalize global prices because of sites like G2A. Even if they want to sell a game for the price of a Zimbabwean loaf of bread, G2A picks up a thousand copies of that and resells them in America, driving the global revenue down.
So, now no one in Zimbabwe gets cheap local prices because there’s no such thing as a “local” price. And the defenders of G2A use their own mental gymnastics to justify it.
Some good points! Thanks for sharing!
Is it a small studio or a place that encourages unionization and pays creators for their creation? Then not really, cuz you still paid for it in the end.
Is it a shit studio with shit ethics? Then yes. Stop giving monsters financial approval.
Or just stop playing games from shit studios with shit ethics in the first place. If they’re that bad, you shouldn’t be playing their games at all, pirated or not.
Sometimes the neighborhood bully has the best toys. Why can’t you play with their Tickle-me-Elmo and piss in their sandbox?
I used to love getting floppy disks on the front of magazines 💾
