And then the second pillar of why any ml argument falls apart: the insistence that any concerns about how china operates implies that the speaker of those concerns is defending Western status quo.
I can envision a more perfect system than China, and guess what, it isn’t anything close to western capitalism. I’ll even go so far as to say that in terms of absolute delta, China may already be closer. Creating a false dichotomy, however, in which it is argued any criticism or concern about China is actually a veiled attempt to maintain the status quo of western capitalism is ridiculous.
I mean, look at the overwhelming response to the murder of that CEO. Can we not accept that this is at the very least a significant criticism of the USAs runaway capitalist system? Does that imply an overwhelming desire for a Chinese-styled government? No? Somehow it appears to be empirically the case that people can express criticism against a system without existing in some binary state which implies full throated support of exactly 1 alternative that’s been constructed as part of this false dichotomy that ml users live and die by.
No, I am implying that among western “leftists” there is a desire to more openly accept vague anti-China claims in a manner that goes against real solidarity with Socialists globally, and they do so because they don’t want to imagine anywhere else could be on a better track.
Western leftists literally never shut up about the Nordic countries so I must flatly reject the premise that the justification is the preservation some vestigial notion of Manifest Destiny
Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying, then… But I agree that we’re just bouncing off supporting arguments rather than directly defending or refuting a central thesis.
My understanding of your point was that western critisms of China are either at best misinformed, but in general the result of trying to preserve the idea that “the west is in front, so everyone else must be behind”.
I fundamentally reject this specific formulation because the result of that formulation is that there exists no valid criticism of China.
So, let’s just settle this: what would you say is the most uncomfortablely valid criticism of China?
I’ll take you at your word that these are the 3 things that you’re most uncomfortable with.
I sincerely hope that these are the three most problematic things, because if true, China really would be nearly a utopia, and I sincerely want such a place to exist.
Considering the 2nd point came with the precondition that you think it’s a problem that is solving itself, and the third is that China isn’t projecting its power enough globally, there is only one outstanding issue for the proletariat being that the economy isn’t centrally planned enough.
With full sincerity I guess if this is your biggest gripe, I don’t know how I reconcile that personally with China’s current and historical trend of net negative migration.
It’s probably clear to you by now, but I am not an expert on China, but I am absorbing and am curious of your perspective.
To me, it appears like with such a rosy view but negative net migration, there must be a reason that statistically speaking, more people would rather leave the system than join it. In the same way that we can hypothesize the existence of a celestial body we haven’t directly observed by it’s gravitational effects on what we know, I wonder why we see net negative migration if there are essentially by your view no material unaddressed issues for the working class?
And I genuinely am asking this question in good faith. I’ll accept with respect any answer you give. In your view is it a global smear campaign that holds people back from migrating or something? Are the people who leave being seduced by false promises? Do you live in China, and if not, what’s holding you back?
Because I’ll say, you and I could comisserate extensively on the failings of western capitalism. I could easily lay out 50 significant issues with the societal organization of most western capitalist democracies. I’m sure you could too. That you only really see one significant unaddressed issue, regardless of if I agree with it, is compelling.
The PRC has fairly strict requirements for immigrating, and not as strict for emmigrating. Pretty clear cut. I will say, the PRC is no utopia. It is, however, continuously improving, and I believe that’s by nature of it being a country led by Communists, rather than Capitalists.
And then the second pillar of why any ml argument falls apart: the insistence that any concerns about how china operates implies that the speaker of those concerns is defending Western status quo.
I can envision a more perfect system than China, and guess what, it isn’t anything close to western capitalism. I’ll even go so far as to say that in terms of absolute delta, China may already be closer. Creating a false dichotomy, however, in which it is argued any criticism or concern about China is actually a veiled attempt to maintain the status quo of western capitalism is ridiculous.
I mean, look at the overwhelming response to the murder of that CEO. Can we not accept that this is at the very least a significant criticism of the USAs runaway capitalist system? Does that imply an overwhelming desire for a Chinese-styled government? No? Somehow it appears to be empirically the case that people can express criticism against a system without existing in some binary state which implies full throated support of exactly 1 alternative that’s been constructed as part of this false dichotomy that ml users live and die by.
No, I am implying that among western “leftists” there is a desire to more openly accept vague anti-China claims in a manner that goes against real solidarity with Socialists globally, and they do so because they don’t want to imagine anywhere else could be on a better track.
Western leftists literally never shut up about the Nordic countries so I must flatly reject the premise that the justification is the preservation some vestigial notion of Manifest Destiny
Seems to me that you’re just trying to dig deeper out of a sense of contrarianism even if you largely agree with what I’m saying.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying, then… But I agree that we’re just bouncing off supporting arguments rather than directly defending or refuting a central thesis.
My understanding of your point was that western critisms of China are either at best misinformed, but in general the result of trying to preserve the idea that “the west is in front, so everyone else must be behind”.
I fundamentally reject this specific formulation because the result of that formulation is that there exists no valid criticism of China.
So, let’s just settle this: what would you say is the most uncomfortablely valid criticism of China?
What do you mean “uncomfortably valid?” Some valid critiques I have include the following, but are not limited to:
The Market Sector has given rise to a large group of Chinese Liberals, who have some level of influence they should not have.
While improving gradually, LGBT protections are not as good as they could be, such as in Cuba.
The PRC could be doing more to dedollarize the world and throw off US Hegemony. Part of this is due to the influence of Chinese Liberals.
I’ll take you at your word that these are the 3 things that you’re most uncomfortable with.
I sincerely hope that these are the three most problematic things, because if true, China really would be nearly a utopia, and I sincerely want such a place to exist.
Considering the 2nd point came with the precondition that you think it’s a problem that is solving itself, and the third is that China isn’t projecting its power enough globally, there is only one outstanding issue for the proletariat being that the economy isn’t centrally planned enough.
With full sincerity I guess if this is your biggest gripe, I don’t know how I reconcile that personally with China’s current and historical trend of net negative migration.
It’s probably clear to you by now, but I am not an expert on China, but I am absorbing and am curious of your perspective.
To me, it appears like with such a rosy view but negative net migration, there must be a reason that statistically speaking, more people would rather leave the system than join it. In the same way that we can hypothesize the existence of a celestial body we haven’t directly observed by it’s gravitational effects on what we know, I wonder why we see net negative migration if there are essentially by your view no material unaddressed issues for the working class?
And I genuinely am asking this question in good faith. I’ll accept with respect any answer you give. In your view is it a global smear campaign that holds people back from migrating or something? Are the people who leave being seduced by false promises? Do you live in China, and if not, what’s holding you back?
Because I’ll say, you and I could comisserate extensively on the failings of western capitalism. I could easily lay out 50 significant issues with the societal organization of most western capitalist democracies. I’m sure you could too. That you only really see one significant unaddressed issue, regardless of if I agree with it, is compelling.
The PRC has fairly strict requirements for immigrating, and not as strict for emmigrating. Pretty clear cut. I will say, the PRC is no utopia. It is, however, continuously improving, and I believe that’s by nature of it being a country led by Communists, rather than Capitalists.