I used to think that, but really he won the center voter. He appealed on jobs, and inflation, and manufacturing, and all those things that are center. He really did get the center voter.
We can bemoan that people should be smarter to see through the BS (and I think most people on lemmy can see through it), but people aren’t and Trump won the center voter.
Trump did a better job appealing to the center than Harris did. Harris relied on the left showing up for abortion rights and for democracy, and they didn’t show up.
I used to think that, but really he won the center voter. He appealed on jobs, and inflation, and manufacturing, and all those things that are center. He really did get the center voter.
These aren’t centrist issues, these are just…issues. Like, jobs isn’t left, right, or center. It’s just something that matters to people. But trying to solve it by deporting 13 million people is far right.
These aren’t centrist issues, these are just…issues.
… Which means they are issued that the center cares about.
Like, jobs isn’t left, right, or center. It’s just something that matters to people.
Seriously? You walked around the whole thing to (kinda) say they aren’t center issues, just to return to say they are issues that appeal to the center. They don’t need to be exclusively center issues. It just needs to win the center voter.
It’s an issue that the center is glued to and that the center wants and that the center voted for. So yes, Trump appealed to the center. And he won because he got the center voter. Yes Trump also appealed to the far right via what really aren’t even dog whistles anymore. But he also appealed up the center. And the center is how he won.
Like c’mon how many different ways do I have to put it to say that he appealed to the center, got the center voter, and won because of the center voters.
I…I don’t really know what to say to this, dude. You’re just declaring things are, “center.” Like…jobs, inflation, and manufacturing are issues, but they’re not on a political spectrum. They’re usually seen as working class issues, since the loss of American manufacturing, increasing prices, and unemployment and low wages (assuming that’s what you mean by, “jobs,”) usually hurt the working class, but that doesn’t make them inherently right or left wing, and the lack of a political orientation doesn’t mean they’re, “center.”
Like, take manufacturing jobs. You can approach that from a left-wing position, and say that we need harsh tax penalties for companies that ship jobs overseas, or take a right-wing position, and say we need to deregulate manufacturing to make U.S. manufacturing cost less. A centrist position would probably look like tax-credits for companies that manufacture in the U.S. But when you say manufacturing is centrist, I have no idea what that means.
Again? Seriously? It does not need to be mutually exclusive. Do you know what I mean by that? Yes jobs, inflation, manufacturing, etc is not exclusively left, it’s not exclusively center, and it’s not exclusively right. WE AGREE ON THAT. JFC.
BUT those are the issues that won Trump the center voter. Those are the issues that convinced the center voter to vote for Trump. And that’s how Trump won, by getting the center voter. By appealing to the center voter on jobs, inflation, manufacturing, etc. Trump did that better than Harris on the center voter. I’m trying all the different ways to say this and I’m just repeating myself.
OK, I get it now. You’re conflating people in the political center with centrism. People who consider themselves politically centrist may have voted for Trump because they liked his message in jobs and manufacturing, but it was not a centrist message. It was a far right message that included blaming immigrants for job losses and promoting isolationist trade policies. By comparison, Harris had a centrist policy of tax credits for small businesses, and that did not appeal to people who consider themselves the political center.
So, when I said, “Harris and Hillary’s losses in the general prove that Americans aren’t that centrist,” I mean that people are rejecting centrist policy measures. It has nothing to do with people in the center voting for him.
but it was not a centrist message. It was a far right message that included blaming immigrants for job losses and promoting isolationist trade policies.
JFC Trump did both. I said this at the start.
First. He did the centrist message. Jobs, wages, inflation. Ok? Those are the messages that the center voted for Trump on.
Ok second. This is second. Separate from the first point. Second: He did a thinly veiled dog whistle to blame immigrants for everything. And everything I already said: yes it’s so overt that it’s not even a dog whistle anymore. And I already yes certain center voters should have seen through it. And that we on Lemmy can generally see through that, but apparently many people can’t. Like I said it all already.
So. What won Trump the election? What part pushed him over the edge to win? I’m saying it was the center voter. The center voter that voted for Trump because Trump appealed to the center voter on issues like jobs, inflation, manufacturing, etc. Those are the issues that the center cares about. And Trump appealed to them more on those issues than Harris appealed to them. JFC. How many times do I have to say the same thing.
Small business? Sounds good in theory but how many voters run a small business? Not enough. It has no appeal for the 99.9% of center voters that just work a standard job. You know what does appeal to the center voter? What Trump says about jobs, inflation, manufacturing. And we’re right back to the start.
First. He did the centrist message. Jobs, wages, inflation. Ok? Those are the messages that the center voted for Trump on.
What in the Dunning-Kruger are you talking about? “Jobs, wages, inflation,” isn’t a fucking message, dude. It’s just three issues that you are assigning to moderates (I’m gonna start using, “moderates,” for voters in the political center, maybe that will help you, because you seem really confused). Maybe moderates claimed those were their biggest issues this cycle, but that doesn’t mean talking about them is, “doing the centrist message.”
Do you get the difference between an issue and a message? “Guns,” is an issue. A message is what you want to do about that issue. Gun control is considered a left wing message. Expanding gun rights is considered right wing. Modest regulations surrounding gun ownership is considered centrist. Do you see how saying, “He did the centrist message,” and then naming issues instead a message is fucking incoherent? Are you starting to understand the difference between talking about an issue that’s important to moderates and having a centrist message?
What won Trump the election? What part pushed him over the edge to win? I’m saying it was the center voter.
Oh my fucking God dude, no one’s disagreeing. It’s just not relevant to anything I was saying in the thread up until the point where you interjected. I was talking about centrist platforms being unpopular with the electorate, and you’re talking about Trump winning voters who consider themselves moderate. Do you get how those are two different things?
The first thing, the one I was talking about, is the centrist message the Democrats ran on. Ok second. This is second. Separate from the first point, is what you were talking about, which is how moderates voted this election. Do you see how those are different things? Do you see that I’m talking about policy and you’re talking about voter blocks? Do you get the difference yet?
Small business? Sounds good in theory but how many voters run a small business? Not enough. It has no appeal for the 99.9% of center voters that just work a standard job.
THIS IS LITERALLY MY WHOLE FUCKING POINT DUDE. It was a centrist policy! It’s a policy that didn’t go too far left or too far right. I agree that this centrist policy didn’t appeal to moderates; it didn’t appeal to anybody! That’s what I was literally saying in the comment you decided to jump in on.
You know what does appeal to the center voter? What Trump says about jobs, inflation, manufacturing. And we’re right back to the start
Yeah dude, and what did he say about those things? Not the issue, the message. Was it that American jobs were being stolen by migrants? Was it that manufacturing losses were the result of globalization, and that aggressive tariffs would fix that? Was it that reckless government spending through the American Rescue Plan was caused inflation? Do you see that, even if those issues matter to moderates, the message isn’t centrist, it’s far-right? Is any of this getting through to you?
I mean, Jesus Fucking Christ dude, I was trying to be nice at first, but Jesus Fucking Christ. It’s bad enough that you wasted this much fucking time because you couldn’t figure out the difference between moderate voters and centrist policies, but to actually be this condescending while you fumble around with terms you don’t understand is fucking unreal.
“Jobs, wages, inflation,” isn’t a fucking message, dude. It’s just three issues that you are assigning to moderates
Are you serious? Did you miss the last 10 years of Trump constantly saying how he was bringing manufacturing back to the US and everything else? That was his core message. He was constantly shouting it. It’s the entire philosophy behind “Make America Great Again”. I really didn’t think I had to elaborate more on his message so I just listed off some key points/issues to refer to that. How in the world are you this pedantic on that.
And that was aimed at the center voter.
And that was what the center voter wanted to hear.
And that is why the center voter voted for Trump.
because you seem really confused
Ah you’re down to personal attacks. Well that’s that. There can be no conversation with people when they act like that. So the rest of my reply I’ll try to make brief and this is my last reply.
and then naming issues instead a message is fucking incoherent?
Are you serious? Well I just said it, yeah I didn’t think I’d have to break down the MAGA message that he was shouting for 10 years, so that’s how I referenced it. Holy cow.
I was talking about centrist platforms being unpopular with the electorate, and you’re talking about Trump winning voters who consider themselves moderate.
Yeah you left out the rest of my explanation. The only issue is if you’re so pedantic on the word “issue” because I didn’t think I had to explain the last 10 years of the MAGA message and used the word “issue” to refer to the MAGA message.
I’ll say it again: Trump ran a centrist platform/message/campaign/policy/whatever term you need to hear so that you can stop trying to play pedantic.
And Trump won the center voter with that centrist platform/message/campaign/policy.
And yes we already discussed that he had far right dog-whistles that everyone should have seen through, but they didn’t, so it came across enough as a centrist message. Why do I get the feeling you’re going to quote the parts above without including this.
THIS IS LITERALLY MY WHOLE FUCKING POINT DUDE. It was a centrist policy!
Oh do we get to shout now? Ok: TRUMP DID HIS CENTRIST POLICY/PLATFORM/MESSAGE/CAMPAIGN BETTER IS MY WHOLE FUCKING POINT. Trump appealed to the center voter better with his centrist platform/message/campaign/policy. What part of that do you not get? Rhetorical question because this is my last reply.
Trump did it better. That’s how Trump got the center voter. With Trump’s centrist platform/message/campaign/policy.
Why do I feel like I need to include this again: And yes we already discussed that he had far right dog-whistles that everyone should have seen through, but they didn’t, so it came across enough as a centrist message.
That’s what I was literally saying in the comment you decided to jump in on.
Ok first reply, so I can close this out:
Harris and Hillary’s losses in the general prove that Americans aren’t that centrist.
[Except] Trump took the center voters. I think we all see through him, but the center voter loves him for economy and jobs.
My whole point is Americans ARE centrist and that Trump appealed to the centrist/center voter/whatever term you want BETTER than Harris, with his centrist platform/message/campaign/policy.
Then you said Trump was actually far right. And that’s when the back and forth started that I keep trying to say that Trump actually appealed to the center with his center platform/message/campaign/policy. And this is where I insert all the discussion about how he did both.
And again I feel like I need to insert that chorus of me saying yes he had dogwhistles that yes people should have seen through.
the message isn’t centrist, it’s far-right
Yeah see you keep trying to say that Trump is [only] far right. And I’m saying most* of his message was actually centrist. (*Most. Not all, Most. Because yes he had far right too. I acknowledge both, but most, not all, most was centrist).
Try to listen to it from a layman’s POV if you need. Go to his 2016 stuff, it was less fascist. It didn’t click to me until I went back, listened to the 2016 stuff, turned off my brain, and actively tried to hear it from a layman’s POV. That’s when I realized that to a layman, it’s a centrist platform/message/campaign/policy that the centrist wants. Yes insert alllllll our conversation about dogwhistles and how people should have seen through it, but they didn’t.
And that’s why I said at the start: [Except] Trump took the center voters. I think we all see through him, but the center voter loves him for [his centrist platform/message/campaign/policy on] economy and jobs. Insert chorus above about dogwhistles that yes people should have seen through.
I used to think that, but really he won the center voter. He appealed on jobs, and inflation, and manufacturing, and all those things that are center. He really did get the center voter.
It sounds like you’re just making up justifications for the party not moving to the left in the future.
Every time they rely on the left they lose. Like we just saw that. They relied on the left coming out for abortion rights and to save mfing democracy and they couldn’t even do that.
You seem to have confused “relying on the left” with “taking the left for granted and moving to the right.” Which is what they did, why they lost, and the only thing you want them to ever do.
You mean the last 4 months they had in the last 44+ years? Which Obama used to get the ACA through. I barely blame him for that.
BUT that wasn’t even the point, which you’re ducking. You said take the left for granted and don’t offer them anything. Well they literally didn’t, and they literally offered them exactly what they wanted. And the left didn’t show up.
You mean the last 4 months they had in the last 44+ years?
The 4 mOnThS they also were happy to use to bail out wall street? Those 4 months?
And they also had a majority for the first two years of Biden’s term. They had enough seats to kill the filibuster forever and protect Roe. They chose not to. Now make more excuses. Maybe the sun was in their eyes. Their dog ate the bill.
You said take the left for granted and don’t offer them anything.
I said they take the left for granted and move to the right. I didn’t say they didn’t offer anything. You know what you call it when you make up someone’s opinion, knock it down, and then declare victory? IT’S A FUCKING STRAWMAN, you insufferable giant hypocrite.
And as for what they “offered,” it was shit they “offered” multiple times in the past and kept conveniently getting in their own way. Do that enough, you lose credibility.
See I made a mistake. I should have left you pondering your “AND” operator of yours. You tried to duck and distract (to both me and yourself), which I responded to.
So I’ll leave today to think about you breaking that “AND” operator that you insist on other people.
I used to think that, but really he won the center voter. He appealed on jobs, and inflation, and manufacturing, and all those things that are center. He really did get the center voter.
We can bemoan that people should be smarter to see through the BS (and I think most people on lemmy can see through it), but people aren’t and Trump won the center voter.
Trump did a better job appealing to the center than Harris did. Harris relied on the left showing up for abortion rights and for democracy, and they didn’t show up.
These aren’t centrist issues, these are just…issues. Like, jobs isn’t left, right, or center. It’s just something that matters to people. But trying to solve it by deporting 13 million people is far right.
… Which means they are issued that the center cares about.
Seriously? You walked around the whole thing to (kinda) say they aren’t center issues, just to return to say they are issues that appeal to the center. They don’t need to be exclusively center issues. It just needs to win the center voter.
It’s an issue that the center is glued to and that the center wants and that the center voted for. So yes, Trump appealed to the center. And he won because he got the center voter. Yes Trump also appealed to the far right via what really aren’t even dog whistles anymore. But he also appealed up the center. And the center is how he won.
Like c’mon how many different ways do I have to put it to say that he appealed to the center, got the center voter, and won because of the center voters.
I…I don’t really know what to say to this, dude. You’re just declaring things are, “center.” Like…jobs, inflation, and manufacturing are issues, but they’re not on a political spectrum. They’re usually seen as working class issues, since the loss of American manufacturing, increasing prices, and unemployment and low wages (assuming that’s what you mean by, “jobs,”) usually hurt the working class, but that doesn’t make them inherently right or left wing, and the lack of a political orientation doesn’t mean they’re, “center.”
Like, take manufacturing jobs. You can approach that from a left-wing position, and say that we need harsh tax penalties for companies that ship jobs overseas, or take a right-wing position, and say we need to deregulate manufacturing to make U.S. manufacturing cost less. A centrist position would probably look like tax-credits for companies that manufacture in the U.S. But when you say manufacturing is centrist, I have no idea what that means.
Again? Seriously? It does not need to be mutually exclusive. Do you know what I mean by that? Yes jobs, inflation, manufacturing, etc is not exclusively left, it’s not exclusively center, and it’s not exclusively right. WE AGREE ON THAT. JFC.
BUT those are the issues that won Trump the center voter. Those are the issues that convinced the center voter to vote for Trump. And that’s how Trump won, by getting the center voter. By appealing to the center voter on jobs, inflation, manufacturing, etc. Trump did that better than Harris on the center voter. I’m trying all the different ways to say this and I’m just repeating myself.
OK, I get it now. You’re conflating people in the political center with centrism. People who consider themselves politically centrist may have voted for Trump because they liked his message in jobs and manufacturing, but it was not a centrist message. It was a far right message that included blaming immigrants for job losses and promoting isolationist trade policies. By comparison, Harris had a centrist policy of tax credits for small businesses, and that did not appeal to people who consider themselves the political center.
So, when I said, “Harris and Hillary’s losses in the general prove that Americans aren’t that centrist,” I mean that people are rejecting centrist policy measures. It has nothing to do with people in the center voting for him.
JFC Trump did both. I said this at the start.
First. He did the centrist message. Jobs, wages, inflation. Ok? Those are the messages that the center voted for Trump on.
Ok second. This is second. Separate from the first point. Second: He did a thinly veiled dog whistle to blame immigrants for everything. And everything I already said: yes it’s so overt that it’s not even a dog whistle anymore. And I already yes certain center voters should have seen through it. And that we on Lemmy can generally see through that, but apparently many people can’t. Like I said it all already.
So. What won Trump the election? What part pushed him over the edge to win? I’m saying it was the center voter. The center voter that voted for Trump because Trump appealed to the center voter on issues like jobs, inflation, manufacturing, etc. Those are the issues that the center cares about. And Trump appealed to them more on those issues than Harris appealed to them. JFC. How many times do I have to say the same thing.
Small business? Sounds good in theory but how many voters run a small business? Not enough. It has no appeal for the 99.9% of center voters that just work a standard job. You know what does appeal to the center voter? What Trump says about jobs, inflation, manufacturing. And we’re right back to the start.
What in the Dunning-Kruger are you talking about? “Jobs, wages, inflation,” isn’t a fucking message, dude. It’s just three issues that you are assigning to moderates (I’m gonna start using, “moderates,” for voters in the political center, maybe that will help you, because you seem really confused). Maybe moderates claimed those were their biggest issues this cycle, but that doesn’t mean talking about them is, “doing the centrist message.”
Do you get the difference between an issue and a message? “Guns,” is an issue. A message is what you want to do about that issue. Gun control is considered a left wing message. Expanding gun rights is considered right wing. Modest regulations surrounding gun ownership is considered centrist. Do you see how saying, “He did the centrist message,” and then naming issues instead a message is fucking incoherent? Are you starting to understand the difference between talking about an issue that’s important to moderates and having a centrist message?
Oh my fucking God dude, no one’s disagreeing. It’s just not relevant to anything I was saying in the thread up until the point where you interjected. I was talking about centrist platforms being unpopular with the electorate, and you’re talking about Trump winning voters who consider themselves moderate. Do you get how those are two different things?
The first thing, the one I was talking about, is the centrist message the Democrats ran on. Ok second. This is second. Separate from the first point, is what you were talking about, which is how moderates voted this election. Do you see how those are different things? Do you see that I’m talking about policy and you’re talking about voter blocks? Do you get the difference yet?
THIS IS LITERALLY MY WHOLE FUCKING POINT DUDE. It was a centrist policy! It’s a policy that didn’t go too far left or too far right. I agree that this centrist policy didn’t appeal to moderates; it didn’t appeal to anybody! That’s what I was literally saying in the comment you decided to jump in on.
Yeah dude, and what did he say about those things? Not the issue, the message. Was it that American jobs were being stolen by migrants? Was it that manufacturing losses were the result of globalization, and that aggressive tariffs would fix that? Was it that reckless government spending through the American Rescue Plan was caused inflation? Do you see that, even if those issues matter to moderates, the message isn’t centrist, it’s far-right? Is any of this getting through to you?
I mean, Jesus Fucking Christ dude, I was trying to be nice at first, but Jesus Fucking Christ. It’s bad enough that you wasted this much fucking time because you couldn’t figure out the difference between moderate voters and centrist policies, but to actually be this condescending while you fumble around with terms you don’t understand is fucking unreal.
Are you serious? Did you miss the last 10 years of Trump constantly saying how he was bringing manufacturing back to the US and everything else? That was his core message. He was constantly shouting it. It’s the entire philosophy behind “Make America Great Again”. I really didn’t think I had to elaborate more on his message so I just listed off some key points/issues to refer to that. How in the world are you this pedantic on that.
And that was aimed at the center voter.
And that was what the center voter wanted to hear.
And that is why the center voter voted for Trump.
Ah you’re down to personal attacks. Well that’s that. There can be no conversation with people when they act like that. So the rest of my reply I’ll try to make brief and this is my last reply.
Are you serious? Well I just said it, yeah I didn’t think I’d have to break down the MAGA message that he was shouting for 10 years, so that’s how I referenced it. Holy cow.
Yeah you left out the rest of my explanation. The only issue is if you’re so pedantic on the word “issue” because I didn’t think I had to explain the last 10 years of the MAGA message and used the word “issue” to refer to the MAGA message.
I’ll say it again: Trump ran a centrist platform/message/campaign/policy/whatever term you need to hear so that you can stop trying to play pedantic.
And Trump won the center voter with that centrist platform/message/campaign/policy.
And yes we already discussed that he had far right dog-whistles that everyone should have seen through, but they didn’t, so it came across enough as a centrist message. Why do I get the feeling you’re going to quote the parts above without including this.
Oh do we get to shout now? Ok: TRUMP DID HIS CENTRIST POLICY/PLATFORM/MESSAGE/CAMPAIGN BETTER IS MY WHOLE FUCKING POINT. Trump appealed to the center voter better with his centrist platform/message/campaign/policy. What part of that do you not get? Rhetorical question because this is my last reply.
Trump did it better. That’s how Trump got the center voter. With Trump’s centrist platform/message/campaign/policy.
Why do I feel like I need to include this again: And yes we already discussed that he had far right dog-whistles that everyone should have seen through, but they didn’t, so it came across enough as a centrist message.
Ok first reply, so I can close this out:
My whole point is Americans ARE centrist and that Trump appealed to the centrist/center voter/whatever term you want BETTER than Harris, with his centrist platform/message/campaign/policy.
Then you said Trump was actually far right. And that’s when the back and forth started that I keep trying to say that Trump actually appealed to the center with his center platform/message/campaign/policy. And this is where I insert all the discussion about how he did both.
And again I feel like I need to insert that chorus of me saying yes he had dogwhistles that yes people should have seen through.
Yeah see you keep trying to say that Trump is [only] far right. And I’m saying most* of his message was actually centrist. (*Most. Not all, Most. Because yes he had far right too. I acknowledge both, but most, not all, most was centrist).
Try to listen to it from a layman’s POV if you need. Go to his 2016 stuff, it was less fascist. It didn’t click to me until I went back, listened to the 2016 stuff, turned off my brain, and actively tried to hear it from a layman’s POV. That’s when I realized that to a layman, it’s a centrist platform/message/campaign/policy that the centrist wants. Yes insert alllllll our conversation about dogwhistles and how people should have seen through it, but they didn’t.
And that’s why I said at the start: [Except] Trump took the center voters. I think we all see through him, but the center voter loves him for [his centrist platform/message/campaign/policy on] economy and jobs. Insert chorus above about dogwhistles that yes people should have seen through.
JFC indeed. Ciao b/c of your personal attacks.
It sounds like you’re just making up justifications for the party not moving to the left in the future.
Every time they rely on the left they lose. Like we just saw that. They relied on the left coming out for abortion rights and to save mfing democracy and they couldn’t even do that.
You seem to have confused “relying on the left” with “taking the left for granted and moving to the right.” Which is what they did, why they lost, and the only thing you want them to ever do.
If capable they would have passed abortion law, that is not “taking the left for granted and moving to the right” lol.
And I see you’re still on your strawman lol. See other reply.
Sure they would have. Like the last two times they had a majority and didn’t fucking feel like it.
You mean the last 4 months they had in the last 44+ years? Which Obama used to get the ACA through. I barely blame him for that.
BUT that wasn’t even the point, which you’re ducking. You said take the left for granted and don’t offer them anything. Well they literally didn’t, and they literally offered them exactly what they wanted. And the left didn’t show up.
The 4 mOnThS they also were happy to use to bail out wall street? Those 4 months?
And they also had a majority for the first two years of Biden’s term. They had enough seats to kill the filibuster forever and protect Roe. They chose not to. Now make more excuses. Maybe the sun was in their eyes. Their dog ate the bill.
I said they take the left for granted and move to the right. I didn’t say they didn’t offer anything. You know what you call it when you make up someone’s opinion, knock it down, and then declare victory? IT’S A FUCKING STRAWMAN, you insufferable giant hypocrite.
And as for what they “offered,” it was shit they “offered” multiple times in the past and kept conveniently getting in their own way. Do that enough, you lose credibility.
See I made a mistake. I should have left you pondering your “AND” operator of yours. You tried to duck and distract (to both me and yourself), which I responded to.
So I’ll leave today to think about you breaking that “AND” operator that you insist on other people.