He’s not doing genocide, depending on your viewpoint he might not be doing enough to stop it up to abetting genocide but he’s not Netanyahu. Stick to the facts and don’t pretend Israel doesn’t have agency.
This is one of our resident MAGA propagandists, so they will not be doing anything of the sort. It’s questionable if they are even able to do anything of the sort.
Nope, not what I said. I said that Israel wouldn’t run out of bombs if the US stopped sending them. They’d either make them themselves or they’d buy them from another ally.
Israeli officials are complaining about running out of tank shells, artillery shells, bombs, and ammo. They aren’t exporting anything right now and they can’t afford to, this slaughter is sucking up their entire industrial capacity.
I’m more referring to the open racism and racial violence that started to show up during the previous administration, and was alarmingly ignored. It stands to reason that if they’re given a second chance, such events would further escalate. Which is what Biden is referring to. Racists generally try to do violence anonymously. They’d likely stop feeling the need to continue trying to be anonymous if they didn’t fear consequences.
Ah yes the veritable core of liberal thought, the extermination of brown people. It’s a shame the left can’t find anything else to talk about, like health care for all, taxing the rich, curbing pollution and anthropomorphic anthropogenic runaway global heating etc. etc. Nope, it’s just kill kill kill.
You do not have to like it or support it, but the option you are presenting gives you no control.
If you want to sit out in the rain and complain about the rain, that’s your lookout. I will take the action that is most likely to possibly lead to less genocide.
By that I mean voting in people who are at least pretending to listen to my desires. Even if in the short term it doesn’t solve the problem.
Genocide isn’t the weather. It’s being done by people and that means we can fucking stop it.
You have to speak out if you want genocide to stop or it will never end. Israel will kill and kill until all 2.2 million people in Gaza are exterminated, and in the meantime they’re going to start fucking World War Three and drag us down with them.
You’ve completely given up on changing anything until next year, haven’t you? Holy shit.
What you’re doing is the same as the weather. “I hate this! I will become ungovernable until someone fixes this! Blah blah whine!”
What do you propose then? Because aside from direct action that is dubiously legal, I am doing what I can. I await your genius plan to stop what’s happening in Gaza. I’m sure you’ll have it any day now.
Edit: unless this is your plan. I wish you luck with “be surly on lemmy.”
It’s the strategy of contention. Being “ungovernable” pressures the government, there’s a toolbox of available mechanisms for doing this and one of those tools is your voice! You need to speak out at every opportunity and make it very clear that you oppose the genocide. It costs you nothing besides your internet points.
Don’t doubt that politics of contention are half the reason Biden was forced out of the race! People opposed him as the nominee and donors knew this, so they pressured him to drop out. Granted, they claim the only reason was because he was too old (and he is) but don’t doubt that the uncommitted movement helped to push him out of the race.
Direct action gets the goods, but it’s not the only thing you can do. You can always always raise your voice in opposition.
You aren’t going to help Trump by attacking Biden. It’s okay.
Whataboutism is when my biases are revealed and I have no strong arguments.
“Please post about this issue in a different thread so I can conveniently ignore it. I might even down downvote it so it doesn’t get any traction, but don’t ever bring this topic up when we’re circlejerking our beloved president who’s funding a genocide”
Showing how weak your arguments are against funding a genocide is not the flex you think it is.
I think your comment is being interpreted as “Biden supports Israel, so vote Red.” However, you’re likely just pointing out the flaws in Biden.
Perhaps you should include the intent of your comment so people do not misunderstand your goal.
Keep in mind that we operate in a FPTP voting system that favors two parties, thus many people will assume criticism of a candidate is a tacit endorsement of the opposition.
The left has enough trouble fighting amongst themselves that people are sick of the lack of cohesive strategy.
Because we’re in the middle of an election cycle, and in America’s fucked up bullshit two party system, any criticism of one side will almost certainly (and largely understandably) be taken as an implicit endorsement of the other side.
Oh yeah, obviously everyone in this thread is directly endorsing Palestinian genocide because we are agreeing with Biden about the racists in our country being emboldened by Trump.
No the fuck they are not and your bullshit take on this is not helping the Palestinian cause in the slightest. I’m not even attacking you, I’m disagreeing, which is a huge difference, but one that requires understanding of nuance and the fact that the world is not black and white.
your bullshit take on this is not helping the Palestinian cause in the slightest.
oh… but your bullshit take is sure helping the palestinians. isn’t it?
You guys are all about nuance when it suits you. Like vietnam, afganistan, iraq and all those warcrimes speak volumes about what your nuances you like defend. Get off your high horse and do some self-reflection at some point in your life. You are not the force of good in this world, and never were.
Genocide is, in fact, black and white. Either you’re against it or you’re for it, there’s no third option.
Name a single fucking reason for someone to stand up for genocide Joe, other than support for genocide. He’s not running for President anymore, you don’t have to keep defending him. Please!
I cannot tell if you are trying to express agreement or disagreement, and I cannot be bothered to check your history to try and deduce which.
If it was supposedly in agreement, then I’d politely suggest you go romance a goat. Rejecting logical fallacies is not the same as disagreeing with the point they failed to make.
I’m genuinely curious. What do you mean by “We’re going to remember you collaborators.”? Feel free to explain in depth, because it sounds awfully like a threat, and I’ve always wanted to have some dialogue with a terrorist (in the literal, dictionary definition of one, that is).
Given that they’re posting from .ml, they absolutely mean that after the revolution–a revolution that will never come–they would definitely murder people that disagreed with any aspect of their ideology.
This is always the way with people that support authoritarian rule, regardless of whether it’s right-authoritarian or left-authoritarian.
Do you care about genocide? You don’t make it look like you do. Because most people take genocide seriously and don’t just throw around accusations about random strangers. And they understand the real barriers there are to reducing and stopping it, and who bears the most responsibility for those barriers, and who is simply forced to bow down to them.
This kind of provocative rhetoric is harmful if you actually want to stop it. You’re getting bombed by downvotes not because what you’re saying, but because the way you’re bringing it, even people that want to stop genocide consider you to be a negative impact on how we actually reduce it. Think about that for a moment.
You’re undermining your own cause, and it’s hard to differentiate you from someone who wants to muddy the water so we don’t discuss atrocities in good faith at all.
There’s no way that’s not a troll or a bot. One trick to tell if someone is a bot is to ask about their family or if they’re depressed. This one skips the questions and posts more bullshit that isn’t even on point of the conversation.
Joe fucking Biden is responsible for this genocide, he is one of the only people that can stop it if he wanted. His unlimited support in tens of billions of dollars of weapons and his protective stance against anyone in the region attempting to defend Palestinians are the only reason this genocide can happen. Without the US Israel would be unable to carry out this genocide.
Why the fuck are people defending him still? He’s not running for President, it’s okay to hate him! It’s okay to speak out! You aren’t helping Trump! Please please p lease stop, you don’t have to do this anymore. Please. Stop defending him.
They are not defending him, they just disagree with your view specifically that he is personally responsible for this and you are conflating that to be defending him. You are perhaps not technically wrong that Joe can just end this, but Joe Biden doesn’t exist in a vacuum, and neither does the war in Gaza. The US dropping Israel like a brick might do more harm than good on the long term:
It could cost Kamala critical support from voters who want the US to remain Israels allies, leading to a pro-genocide Trump leadership.
It could cause an all out war because Iran is just salivating at such an opportunity.
It could break diplomatic relationships for the US that it relies on to function.
And most likely (imo), it would be giving up the few places in the middle east that the US has some level of control and a positive (and not frienemy) relationship with. This is a particularly touchy reason because influence is power at the international level. And that does seem to resonate with most of the US people. So even if they might be anti-genocide, they might be more in favor of keeping that control.
Kamala could align her position more with the people once she’s in office. And if future elections produce a more reasonable candidate on the other side (lol), you could actually punish them for it with your vote if they don’t. But right now, supporting Israel is what is seemingly the safest option for a candidate. The fact that is the answer they settled on shows there are underlying reasons that out-weigh just dropping Israel, and if you want to make an actual change, those underlying reasons are the ones you have to put to rest before things can change.
Or… you can refuse to look at actual solutions, and just accuse people because they don’t believe in your absolutist stance which has a near zero chance to actually change anything.
You should be trying to change minds so that the pressure from people might actually make them reconsider their options. And by calling people who don’t immediately agree with you as being pro genocide, they’re going to equate being anti genocide with your position, and they’re going to see anyone holding the position as being naive. Even though it clearly isn’t, but you’ve wasted the first impression they could have had to change their mind. It will not make people who don’t yet understand the issue side with you to actually make a change. Now every attempt after that is going to be harder and harder. And so their stance remains ever in the direction of supporting Isreal. And leadership will once more have to appeal to that side.
It could cost Kamala critical support from voters who want the US to remain Israels allies, leading to a pro-genocide Trump leadership.
This conversation is not about Kamala, we are talking about Biden remember?
It could cause an all out war because Iran is just salivating at such an opportunity.
Excuse me? It’s fucking Israel that is trying to start all out war with the shit they keep doing, Iran’s responses have only been reserved and reasonable by comparison
It could break diplomatic relationships for the US that it relies on to function.
With who? Germany, I guess? I doubt it. Europe is the US’s playground, whatever the US wants they’ll either support it or quietly stand aside.
But, also? Support for this genocide is already hurting diplomatic relationships. Turkey and Egypt in particular are under a lot of domestic pressure from this war, when Israel starts a regional conflict it’s only going to burn more of those bridges. There are limits to how far we can support Israel before other Middle East allies turn against the US.
And most likely (imo), it would be giving up the few places in the middle east that the US has some level of control and a positive (and not frienemy) relationship with. This is a particularly touchy reason because influence is power at the international level. And that does seem to resonate with most of the US people. So even if they might be anti-genocide, they might be more in favor of keeping that control.
Yes, this is entirely true. We support Israel as our unsinkable aircraft carrier in the Middle East, we need it to control that route for trade and migration and oil resources.
I doubt realpolitik is a big factor on voter’s minds, though. The most ardent supporters of Israel are going to vote for Trump anyway. Appealing to them is bad politics.
This conversation is not about Kamala, we are talking about Biden remember?
If you cannot see that Kamala’s campaign is still inherently tied to Joe Biden’s campaign and his current presidency, I don’t know what to tell you. He is still the president, and she is his vice president, and his policies inform people about hers.
Excuse me? It’s fucking Israel that is trying to start all out war with the shit they keep doing, Iran’s responses have only been reserved and reasonable by comparison
Are you forgetting that Iran is a militant Sharia state that clearly has more than a few human right violations under their belt? They are not the good guys either. You’re right, Israel is trying to provoke shit, and they rightfully should be punished for doing so. But that’s sadly irrelevant, If the US drops Israel, this will cause a massive power vacuum on Israels part, and it’s very likely that we will go from a war not between Israel and the Palestinians, but war to a war in all of the middle east. A magnitude larger in human suffering. If you want to stop genocide, that doesn’t sound like the thing you want.
With who? Germany, I guess? I doubt it. Europe is the US’s playground, whatever the US wants they’ll either support it or quietly stand aside.
Ehh, I’m not even sure where you get this from. The EU will not just blindly support what the US wants, but we are very aligned diplomatically. In the EU there is sadly a similar struggle for different reasons.
But it does make your position a little bit more understandable if you truly think the US is somehow the leader of everyone else they are good diplomatic partners with. Fortunately, that is not the case.
To answer the question, no, I was referring in part to Taiwan and Ukraine, but also allies with whom a larger majority supports Isreal, or those that have agreements with the US that hang on their stance.
But, also? Support for this genocide is already hurting diplomatic relationships. Turkey and Egypt in particular are under a lot of domestic pressure from this war, when Israel starts a regional conflict it’s only going to burn more of those bridges. There are limits to how far we can support Israel before other Middle East allies turn against the US.
Yes. And yet, that’s not enough of a reason. Taking either position has negatives. And yes, there are limits to the support the US can take, but clearly and unfortunately where they’re currently at, they haven’t crossed that line.
Yes, this is entirely true. We support Israel as our unsinkable aircraft carrier in the Middle East, we need it to control that route for trade and migration and oil resources.
I doubt realpolitik is a big factor on voter’s minds, though. The most ardent supporters of Israel are going to vote for Trump anyway. Appealing to them is bad politics.
And here is your fatal flaw. If this was actually the case, it would be unfathomable for a Democrat to hold this position, yet it’s not. It’s an uncomfortable truth, I’m sure. But not everyone has the same experiences as you do. Nor as your friends, nor as the people in your town, nor as the people in your state. You saw what happened to Joe Biden when his mental decline clearly became a reason to urge him out of the race. When the pressure is there, it’s hard to ignore. But sadly the truth is that his stance on Gaza wasn’t what caused him to drop out, and no significant pressure has even manifested.
If you cannot see that Kamala’s campaign is still inherently tied to Joe Biden’s campaign and his current presidency, I don’t know what to tell you. He is still the president, and she is his vice president, and his policies inform people about hers.
I don’t think people connect her with Biden’s genocide. Yes, she is complicit because there are things she could be doing to remove Biden from office, but most people don’t see the Vice President as actually all that important in deciding policy. I do not think attacking Biden on this issue hurts her at all, and that’s why she’s going to win.
Attacking Biden is, in fact, a good way to pressure Harris without hurting her chances at winning. He’s a fair target and it should be open season on his evil ancient ass.
Are you forgetting that Iran is a militant Sharia state that clearly has more than a few human right violations under their belt? They are not the good guys either. You’re right, Israel is trying to provoke shit, and they rightfully should be punished for doing so. But that’s sadly irrelevant, If the US drops Israel, this will cause a massive power vacuum on Israels part, and it’s very likely that we will go from a war not between Israel and the Palestinians, but war to a war in all of the middle east. A magnitude larger in human suffering. If you want to stop genocide, that doesn’t sound like the thing you want.
Whenever they’ve retaliated in the past it’s always been very conservative and measured because they don’t want a regional war either. They understand that a regional war wouldn’t save Palestinian lives and would be extremely costly for everyone in the region, they’re not the problem here. Israel is the only actor trying to start more wars at this moment and you need to recognize that, rather than scaring yourself with Iranian boogeymen. Israel is the problem and Israel must be stopped, or war is inevitable.
Yes. And yet, that’s not enough of a reason. Taking either position has negatives. And yes, there are limits to the support the US can take, but clearly and unfortunately where they’re currently at, they haven’t crossed that line.
There’s still several months until the election. It can, and will, continue to get worse. I don’t think we should find out where the breaking point is.
But sadly the truth is that his stance on Gaza wasn’t what caused him to drop out, and no such pressure has even manifested.
The uncommitted movement is a powerful force in swing states and donors know this - Biden being old is only part of the reason he was forced to drop out.
If this was actually the case, it would be unfathomable for a Democrat to hold this position, yet it’s not.
It’s like I said, I think Harris is going to be just fine. Dems believe, probably correctly, that Biden is a lightning rod that will distract voters away from Harris’s record on Israel and allow them to win this November. If they’re right, we can voice opposition to Biden’s racist genocidal policies without helping Trump win. We can’t afford to be silent.
So now that he’s out of the race there’s literally no reason to hold back. At this point support for Biden is 100% just support for genocide.
And what outcome do you have from voting that isn’t genocide? You either have implicitly helping genocide through weapons or explicitly helping by backing Israel no matter what and getting US troops involved. And not voting is just helping the latter side. It sucks and we definitely need to protest more and apply pressure how we can but there aren’t really that many choices for us through voting.
I was also free to speak out against him before and did, but that didn’t change that I was gonna vote for him even though I have some problems with him. And the same applies to Kamala as well, who at least on Palestine and Israel seems to have the same exact position as Biden.
This the is the USA brother. Genocide is our game. We gotta get the right people in charge to change that. And Trump is definitely not anti genocide.
If you just want me to say fuck Joe Biden then sure I’m not married to the man. I wish he had more balls to take these public stances earlier than right before an election.
I see where we’ve been pushing for a ceasefire for months. We’re not there killing people. You should be upset with Israel, yet you post this shit like it’s our fault Israel went ham after a terrorist attack.
I think it’s all bullshit and everyone needs to sit the fuck down but that doesn’t drive profits.
It’s our fault that Israel has enough weapons to carry out this genocide and it’s our fault that none of the other actors in the region can pressure Israel to stop. Israel literally would have run out of bombs by now! The blood is on our hands.
We never pushed for a real ceasefire by the way, we have only ever pushed for a temporary pause to release the hostages.
What’s actually needed is a permanent ceasefire, a hostage exchange (so a release of all Palestinian prisoners), and an arms embargo on Israel. That’s the bare minimum needed to end the conflict - it doesn’t even get into the reparations Israel should be forced to pay or the truth-and-reconciliation commission that should be set up to try soldiers for their crimes against humanity.
You don’t think someone else would have given them the guns and bombs??? Your blame game is bullshit. Israel is doing the killing, blame them. Blaming our President is a ridiculous take. Do you blame the gun manufactures for the school shootings?
Oh, they’re very real, sadly. Most instances defederated with the big two tankie instances, Lemmygrad and Hexbear, but the tankies still hop on their alts so they can whinge at anti-fascists on the wider fediverse.
Oh also, yes, I do blame gun manufacturers for school shootings. They could make their guns harder to obtain, harder to misuse, and harder to use to perform mass shootings. But that would hurt their profit margins 🤑🤑🤑, so they won’t do that.
That’s why I 100% support the political movement to make it possible to sue gun manufacturers for mass shootings.
I blame the person using the gun, and I’m not a gun nut. Blaming the gun manufacturer, come on man, that’s a really shit take. You should listen to the white stripes song effect and cause. It lays it out pretty good I’d say.
He’s still doing genocide y’all.
He’s not doing genocide, depending on your viewpoint he might not be doing enough to stop it up to abetting genocide but he’s not Netanyahu. Stick to the facts and don’t pretend Israel doesn’t have agency.
This is one of our resident MAGA propagandists, so they will not be doing anything of the sort. It’s questionable if they are even able to do anything of the sort.
It’s really nice that people on Lemmy are finally picking up on this.
Biden isn’t running for President, it’s okay to criticize him.
This “if you’re not with us you’re with the enemy” shit is gross.
Wow. Said without a single hint of irony or self-awareness.
He’s directly supplying the genocide. Israel would have run out of bombs by now.
Israel is one of the largest exporters of military equipment in the world, they wouldn’t have run out of bombs by now.
So why are we still doing it?
We signed a 10 year deal with them in 2016.
We are also bound by the Leahy Laws, but those are conveniently ignored.
They did run out of some ordinances after a campaign that surpassed the blitz on London during world war 2.
At this time many of the booms are new, freshly minted gifts.
And so it is 100% alright to export weapons to them that they use to kill thousands of civillians.
Nope, not what I said. I said that Israel wouldn’t run out of bombs if the US stopped sending them. They’d either make them themselves or they’d buy them from another ally.
As far as every centrist is concerned, yes.
Israeli officials are complaining about running out of tank shells, artillery shells, bombs, and ammo. They aren’t exporting anything right now and they can’t afford to, this slaughter is sucking up their entire industrial capacity.
Ok, and it’ll be genocide here and there under Trump. Until you can provide a solution, stop whinging about the choices that are forced on us.
Please enlighten my unamerican ass, what Genocides did trump do on US soil in his first term? (Asked snarkily but a sincere question)
I’m more referring to the open racism and racial violence that started to show up during the previous administration, and was alarmingly ignored. It stands to reason that if they’re given a second chance, such events would further escalate. Which is what Biden is referring to. Racists generally try to do violence anonymously. They’d likely stop feeling the need to continue trying to be anonymous if they didn’t fear consequences.
Ah, and there it finally is.
Liberals advocating for genocide, again.
Ah yes the veritable core of liberal thought, the extermination of brown people. It’s a shame the left can’t find anything else to talk about, like health care for all, taxing the rich, curbing pollution and
anthropomorphicanthropogenic runaway global heating etc. etc. Nope, it’s just kill kill kill.anthropogenic
Thanks, I always put the wrong one down. As a former Anthropologist, it’s embarrassing.
I’m glad my acronym (ARGH) still works!
I’m a dick for pointing out the mistake, really.
You should put a /s at the end, the moron you are replying to probably doesn’t understand your sarcasm.
I feel like starting a comment with “ah yes” does the same thing, but you’re probably right.
You’d think, I’ve been reading this thread and the replies of that idiot, and they seem to have the comprehension skills of a 2 year old. 😂
Silence is support and I am not a genocide supporter. The least you could do is fucking speak out.
Biden isn’t even running for president. How the fuck does it matter if I point out he’s an evil piece of shit?
You do not have to like it or support it, but the option you are presenting gives you no control.
If you want to sit out in the rain and complain about the rain, that’s your lookout. I will take the action that is most likely to possibly lead to less genocide.
By that I mean voting in people who are at least pretending to listen to my desires. Even if in the short term it doesn’t solve the problem.
Genocide isn’t the weather. It’s being done by people and that means we can fucking stop it.
You have to speak out if you want genocide to stop or it will never end. Israel will kill and kill until all 2.2 million people in Gaza are exterminated, and in the meantime they’re going to start fucking World War Three and drag us down with them.
You’ve completely given up on changing anything until next year, haven’t you? Holy shit.
What you’re doing is the same as the weather. “I hate this! I will become ungovernable until someone fixes this! Blah blah whine!”
What do you propose then? Because aside from direct action that is dubiously legal, I am doing what I can. I await your genius plan to stop what’s happening in Gaza. I’m sure you’ll have it any day now.
Edit: unless this is your plan. I wish you luck with “be surly on lemmy.”
It’s the strategy of contention. Being “ungovernable” pressures the government, there’s a toolbox of available mechanisms for doing this and one of those tools is your voice! You need to speak out at every opportunity and make it very clear that you oppose the genocide. It costs you nothing besides your internet points.
Don’t doubt that politics of contention are half the reason Biden was forced out of the race! People opposed him as the nominee and donors knew this, so they pressured him to drop out. Granted, they claim the only reason was because he was too old (and he is) but don’t doubt that the uncommitted movement helped to push him out of the race.
Direct action gets the goods, but it’s not the only thing you can do. You can always always raise your voice in opposition.
You aren’t going to help Trump by attacking Biden. It’s okay.
So, be surly on Lemmy. Good luck!
Don’t worry, they’ll be cheerleading fascism everywhere they can on here.
You’re right, no one should post anything on the internet.
Him, most other world leaders, most of the populace, etc etc. Under your definition nearly everyone is an evil piece of shit. /Shrug
Here I am preparing dinner instead of stopping dictators from committing genocide… I guess Im also evil then… 🤷🏻♂️
Oh you! 😏
This is whataboutism
Whataboutism is when my biases are revealed and I have no strong arguments.
“Please post about this issue in a different thread so I can conveniently ignore it. I might even down downvote it so it doesn’t get any traction, but don’t ever bring this topic up when we’re circlejerking our beloved president who’s funding a genocide”
Showing how weak your arguments are against funding a genocide is not the flex you think it is.
I already conceded that this isn’t whataboutism, before you wrote this reply.
Pointing out hypocrisy isn’t whataboutism. Whataboutism would be distracting from the issue with something unrelated.
But aiding and abetting a genocide is, in fact, racist. I have to point that out because no one seems to care anymore.
Ok, that’s fair enough. Just goes to show that the KKK doesn’t have the kind of lobbying power Israel does.
I think your comment is being interpreted as “Biden supports Israel, so vote Red.” However, you’re likely just pointing out the flaws in Biden.
Perhaps you should include the intent of your comment so people do not misunderstand your goal.
Keep in mind that we operate in a FPTP voting system that favors two parties, thus many people will assume criticism of a candidate is a tacit endorsement of the opposition.
The left has enough trouble fighting amongst themselves that people are sick of the lack of cohesive strategy.
Biden isn’t running for President! How can my comment be interpreted as saying anything about how people should vote?
Because we’re in the middle of an election cycle, and in America’s fucked up bullshit two party system, any criticism of one side will almost certainly (and largely understandably) be taken as an implicit endorsement of the other side.
The elections never fucking end these days. Trump’s reelection started when he lost.
If that trend continues we’ll just never be allowed to criticize any Democrat for any reason at any time.
Ikr, he just murdered trump and he’s what? 100?
Oh wow! The pot called the kettle black! 😲
Do you care at all about genocide? Biden isn’t even running for president, you can talk shit about him and it won’t help Trump at all.
Yet you still support him and his genocide. 🤔
Oh yeah, obviously everyone in this thread is directly endorsing Palestinian genocide because we are agreeing with Biden about the racists in our country being emboldened by Trump.
Anyone attacking me for pointing out the fact that Biden is doing genocide is, in fact, endorsing the genocide.
Biden is not running for President. You don’t need to protect him anymore to stop Trump. So, speak out!
If you won’t speak out, even when attacking Biden has zero impact on the race, you are literally a genocide supporter.
No the fuck they are not and your bullshit take on this is not helping the Palestinian cause in the slightest. I’m not even attacking you, I’m disagreeing, which is a huge difference, but one that requires understanding of nuance and the fact that the world is not black and white.
oh… but your bullshit take is sure helping the palestinians. isn’t it?
You guys are all about nuance when it suits you. Like vietnam, afganistan, iraq and all those warcrimes speak volumes about what your nuances you like defend. Get off your high horse and do some self-reflection at some point in your life. You are not the force of good in this world, and never were.
Genocide is, in fact, black and white. Either you’re against it or you’re for it, there’s no third option.
Name a single fucking reason for someone to stand up for genocide Joe, other than support for genocide. He’s not running for President anymore, you don’t have to keep defending him. Please!
Lol. You throw out logical fallacies, then immediately play martyr. It’s just too good.
Wow, holy shit this is hilarious. Liberals are projecting so hard, and they think they’re the ones in the right for saying this manipulative bullshit.
Incredible. It’s just too good.
We’re going to remember you collaborators.
I cannot tell if you are trying to express agreement or disagreement, and I cannot be bothered to check your history to try and deduce which.
If it was supposedly in agreement, then I’d politely suggest you go romance a goat. Rejecting logical fallacies is not the same as disagreeing with the point they failed to make.
I’m genuinely curious. What do you mean by “We’re going to remember you collaborators.”? Feel free to explain in depth, because it sounds awfully like a threat, and I’ve always wanted to have some dialogue with a terrorist (in the literal, dictionary definition of one, that is).
Given that they’re posting from .ml, they absolutely mean that after the revolution–a revolution that will never come–they would definitely murder people that disagreed with any aspect of their ideology.
This is always the way with people that support authoritarian rule, regardless of whether it’s right-authoritarian or left-authoritarian.
🤓
Do you care about genocide? You don’t make it look like you do. Because most people take genocide seriously and don’t just throw around accusations about random strangers. And they understand the real barriers there are to reducing and stopping it, and who bears the most responsibility for those barriers, and who is simply forced to bow down to them.
This kind of provocative rhetoric is harmful if you actually want to stop it. You’re getting bombed by downvotes not because what you’re saying, but because the way you’re bringing it, even people that want to stop genocide consider you to be a negative impact on how we actually reduce it. Think about that for a moment.
You’re undermining your own cause, and it’s hard to differentiate you from someone who wants to muddy the water so we don’t discuss atrocities in good faith at all.
This poster absolutely does not care. They’re just using it to make themselves feel better than everyone else. It’s been this way for months.
I have them tagged, they admitted that they’re a teenager in school, and they were shocked to find out that Hamas wants genocide lol
There’s no way that’s not a troll or a bot. One trick to tell if someone is a bot is to ask about their family or if they’re depressed. This one skips the questions and posts more bullshit that isn’t even on point of the conversation.
No actually this comment thread makes me feel fucking horrible and sick.
Sounds very much like a bot/troll.
Joe fucking Biden is responsible for this genocide, he is one of the only people that can stop it if he wanted. His unlimited support in tens of billions of dollars of weapons and his protective stance against anyone in the region attempting to defend Palestinians are the only reason this genocide can happen. Without the US Israel would be unable to carry out this genocide.
Why the fuck are people defending him still? He’s not running for President, it’s okay to hate him! It’s okay to speak out! You aren’t helping Trump! Please please p lease stop, you don’t have to do this anymore. Please. Stop defending him.
They are not defending him, they just disagree with your view specifically that he is personally responsible for this and you are conflating that to be defending him. You are perhaps not technically wrong that Joe can just end this, but Joe Biden doesn’t exist in a vacuum, and neither does the war in Gaza. The US dropping Israel like a brick might do more harm than good on the long term:
Kamala could align her position more with the people once she’s in office. And if future elections produce a more reasonable candidate on the other side (lol), you could actually punish them for it with your vote if they don’t. But right now, supporting Israel is what is seemingly the safest option for a candidate. The fact that is the answer they settled on shows there are underlying reasons that out-weigh just dropping Israel, and if you want to make an actual change, those underlying reasons are the ones you have to put to rest before things can change. Or… you can refuse to look at actual solutions, and just accuse people because they don’t believe in your absolutist stance which has a near zero chance to actually change anything.
You should be trying to change minds so that the pressure from people might actually make them reconsider their options. And by calling people who don’t immediately agree with you as being pro genocide, they’re going to equate being anti genocide with your position, and they’re going to see anyone holding the position as being naive. Even though it clearly isn’t, but you’ve wasted the first impression they could have had to change their mind. It will not make people who don’t yet understand the issue side with you to actually make a change. Now every attempt after that is going to be harder and harder. And so their stance remains ever in the direction of supporting Isreal. And leadership will once more have to appeal to that side.
This conversation is not about Kamala, we are talking about Biden remember?
Excuse me? It’s fucking Israel that is trying to start all out war with the shit they keep doing, Iran’s responses have only been reserved and reasonable by comparison
With who? Germany, I guess? I doubt it. Europe is the US’s playground, whatever the US wants they’ll either support it or quietly stand aside.
But, also? Support for this genocide is already hurting diplomatic relationships. Turkey and Egypt in particular are under a lot of domestic pressure from this war, when Israel starts a regional conflict it’s only going to burn more of those bridges. There are limits to how far we can support Israel before other Middle East allies turn against the US.
Yes, this is entirely true. We support Israel as our unsinkable aircraft carrier in the Middle East, we need it to control that route for trade and migration and oil resources.
I doubt realpolitik is a big factor on voter’s minds, though. The most ardent supporters of Israel are going to vote for Trump anyway. Appealing to them is bad politics.
If you cannot see that Kamala’s campaign is still inherently tied to Joe Biden’s campaign and his current presidency, I don’t know what to tell you. He is still the president, and she is his vice president, and his policies inform people about hers.
Are you forgetting that Iran is a militant Sharia state that clearly has more than a few human right violations under their belt? They are not the good guys either. You’re right, Israel is trying to provoke shit, and they rightfully should be punished for doing so. But that’s sadly irrelevant, If the US drops Israel, this will cause a massive power vacuum on Israels part, and it’s very likely that we will go from a war not between Israel and the Palestinians, but war to a war in all of the middle east. A magnitude larger in human suffering. If you want to stop genocide, that doesn’t sound like the thing you want.
Ehh, I’m not even sure where you get this from. The EU will not just blindly support what the US wants, but we are very aligned diplomatically. In the EU there is sadly a similar struggle for different reasons.
But it does make your position a little bit more understandable if you truly think the US is somehow the leader of everyone else they are good diplomatic partners with. Fortunately, that is not the case. To answer the question, no, I was referring in part to Taiwan and Ukraine, but also allies with whom a larger majority supports Isreal, or those that have agreements with the US that hang on their stance.
Yes. And yet, that’s not enough of a reason. Taking either position has negatives. And yes, there are limits to the support the US can take, but clearly and unfortunately where they’re currently at, they haven’t crossed that line.
And here is your fatal flaw. If this was actually the case, it would be unfathomable for a Democrat to hold this position, yet it’s not. It’s an uncomfortable truth, I’m sure. But not everyone has the same experiences as you do. Nor as your friends, nor as the people in your town, nor as the people in your state. You saw what happened to Joe Biden when his mental decline clearly became a reason to urge him out of the race. When the pressure is there, it’s hard to ignore. But sadly the truth is that his stance on Gaza wasn’t what caused him to drop out, and no significant pressure has even manifested.
I don’t think people connect her with Biden’s genocide. Yes, she is complicit because there are things she could be doing to remove Biden from office, but most people don’t see the Vice President as actually all that important in deciding policy. I do not think attacking Biden on this issue hurts her at all, and that’s why she’s going to win.
Attacking Biden is, in fact, a good way to pressure Harris without hurting her chances at winning. He’s a fair target and it should be open season on his evil ancient ass.
Whenever they’ve retaliated in the past it’s always been very conservative and measured because they don’t want a regional war either. They understand that a regional war wouldn’t save Palestinian lives and would be extremely costly for everyone in the region, they’re not the problem here. Israel is the only actor trying to start more wars at this moment and you need to recognize that, rather than scaring yourself with Iranian boogeymen. Israel is the problem and Israel must be stopped, or war is inevitable.
There’s still several months until the election. It can, and will, continue to get worse. I don’t think we should find out where the breaking point is.
The uncommitted movement is a powerful force in swing states and donors know this - Biden being old is only part of the reason he was forced to drop out.
It’s like I said, I think Harris is going to be just fine. Dems believe, probably correctly, that Biden is a lightning rod that will distract voters away from Harris’s record on Israel and allow them to win this November. If they’re right, we can voice opposition to Biden’s racist genocidal policies without helping Trump win. We can’t afford to be silent.
So now that he’s out of the race there’s literally no reason to hold back. At this point support for Biden is 100% just support for genocide.
So would trump. I hope the high from your farts equals the high ground you feel like you have.
Trump isn’t running against Biden.
And what outcome do you have from voting that isn’t genocide? You either have implicitly helping genocide through weapons or explicitly helping by backing Israel no matter what and getting US troops involved. And not voting is just helping the latter side. It sucks and we definitely need to protest more and apply pressure how we can but there aren’t really that many choices for us through voting.
No one is voting for Biden! He’s not running for President!
You are free to speak out against him now, don’t you get it?
I was also free to speak out against him before and did, but that didn’t change that I was gonna vote for him even though I have some problems with him. And the same applies to Kamala as well, who at least on Palestine and Israel seems to have the same exact position as Biden.
You only get to vote once every few years.
You can use your voice right now to oppose genocide.
This the is the USA brother. Genocide is our game. We gotta get the right people in charge to change that. And Trump is definitely not anti genocide.
If you just want me to say fuck Joe Biden then sure I’m not married to the man. I wish he had more balls to take these public stances earlier than right before an election.
It’s not just the people in charge! Every one of us has a responsibility to speak out, our voices matter.
I’m so fucking devastated that people are still defending him. All I can assume is they love genocide.
Wasn’t he working on a cease fire? I stopped following after all the “genocide joe bots” flooded this place. They really didn’t help the cause.
Israel assassinated the guy they were negotiating with when he was in Iran.
It’s always been a fucking lie.
I see where we’ve been pushing for a ceasefire for months. We’re not there killing people. You should be upset with Israel, yet you post this shit like it’s our fault Israel went ham after a terrorist attack.
I think it’s all bullshit and everyone needs to sit the fuck down but that doesn’t drive profits.
It’s our fault that Israel has enough weapons to carry out this genocide and it’s our fault that none of the other actors in the region can pressure Israel to stop. Israel literally would have run out of bombs by now! The blood is on our hands.
We never pushed for a real ceasefire by the way, we have only ever pushed for a temporary pause to release the hostages.
What’s actually needed is a permanent ceasefire, a hostage exchange (so a release of all Palestinian prisoners), and an arms embargo on Israel. That’s the bare minimum needed to end the conflict - it doesn’t even get into the reparations Israel should be forced to pay or the truth-and-reconciliation commission that should be set up to try soldiers for their crimes against humanity.
You don’t think someone else would have given them the guns and bombs??? Your blame game is bullshit. Israel is doing the killing, blame them. Blaming our President is a ridiculous take. Do you blame the gun manufactures for the school shootings?
They’re a tankie. They blame everything on ‘the libs’. In most ways, in fact, they’re indistinguishable from a conservative.
I was thinking they were a troll/bot, I didn’t think someone that ignorant could use a computer.
Oh, they’re very real, sadly. Most instances defederated with the big two tankie instances, Lemmygrad and Hexbear, but the tankies still hop on their alts so they can whinge at anti-fascists on the wider fediverse.
Others would have supplied guns and bombs so we supplied it.
What kind of lunatic argument is that?
So much winning. Damn.
If they knew they were specifically being used for school shooting, just like israel is doing genocide? Yes, you buttstain.
Serious case of brain rot you have in these threads.
.ml, all I need to know about you. Troll on bro
Oh also, yes, I do blame gun manufacturers for school shootings. They could make their guns harder to obtain, harder to misuse, and harder to use to perform mass shootings. But that would hurt their profit margins 🤑🤑🤑, so they won’t do that.
That’s why I 100% support the political movement to make it possible to sue gun manufacturers for mass shootings.
Do you not?
I blame the person using the gun, and I’m not a gun nut. Blaming the gun manufacturer, come on man, that’s a really shit take. You should listen to the white stripes song effect and cause. It lays it out pretty good I’d say.
Why not? If gun manufacturers limited who they allow to use their guns, fewer shootings would happen.
My dude.
Karl Marx specifically said something about this. You might want to read that. Bakunin had a few things to say about it also.
No one else even could. The US has an unparalleled ability to supply weapons.
Germany would supply some, I’m sure, but they couldn’t keep up with Israel’s demand.
You know this how? Feelings? Your degree in political science? Or just bullshit?
Personally, my money is on bullshit, if you’re even real. How’s the family?
Name another country that could provide billions upon billions of dollars of military equipment.
Russia? They’re allied with enemies of Israel, that would blow up in their faces. China? Same problem.
Germany? Again, their output is much lower than the US, they can’t afford it.
So who is it going to be? Can you name the country that would support Israel if the US pulled out?
Even if what you say about the Dems weren’t misleading, what’s our other option?
Is your Lord, Savior, convicted felon, and proven rapist and pedipholile Donald Trump a friend to the Palestinian people?
Protest, strikes, boycotts, mass demonstration, and voicing your dissent however you can.
Do not be silent. You are not helpless.
Still not as bad as the Russian genocide of Circassian people