The modifier doesn’t make the probability less flat. You have an equal chance of getting every value on the die, so the worst and best outcome are equally likely. Compare to like 3d6. There’s only one way to roll a 3 [1,1,1], but a bunch of ways to roll an 8 ([4,3,1], [3,3,2], [6,1,1], etc)
Go look at https://anydice.com/ . The default should be 3d6 and you see a nice curve. Change it to 1d20 and it’s flat. 5% for everything. Change it to 1d20+5 and it’s still flat, just with bigger numbers.
Your odds of success change in that when you’re looking to roll a 15 you’re more likely to fail than when you’re looking for a 12, but at all times, for any check, you’re just as likely to get an extreme result as an average. That’s weird.
What’s the difference between a third level spell and a fourth level spell? How many times you can feasibly use it. Or if you upcast, one die. This is probably the thing I like most about 5e compared to other systems.
When you are creating a spell, how do you know what level it should be? How do you know what effects it should have? There’s some guidance in the DMG but it’s flimsy and not actually used by many of the canon spells. If you don’t care about being creative with magic then you might not care about this. To me it makes it feel very rigid and mechanical.
There are so many other ways you could do magic.
Giving you a move every turn keeps combat more interesting than incentivizing you to stay still by treating it as any other action, IMO.
What? My complaint wasn’t that you can move and attack. It’s that that’s typically all you do. You move 30’ and make a single attack. Go read “create an advantage” in the fate-srd for a glimpse of how things could be different. Some DMs will let you interact with the environment, but that’s highly DM dependent and uncodified.
At higher levels at least you tend to get more stuff you can do on your turn.
I think pf2e also changed it so you get 3 actions.
You have an equal chance of getting every value on the die, so the worst and best outcome are equally likely.
Yes, but only in a critical success and critical fail. If you’re supposed to always succeed because your character should be able to do the action successfully in their sleep, the DM isn’t even supposed to make you roll. The die may land on any value between 1 and 20, but if the DC is 10 and you have +7 to your roll, you’ve eliminated failures from 3-9 on the d20. I’m well aware of how the average chance of rolling a given number changes when rolling multiple dice, but I’m not sure why a 3d6 bell curve would be preferable to 1d20 when you’re only looking for a binary success or failure.
When you are creating a spell, how do you know what level it should be? How do you know what effects it should have? There’s some guidance in the DMG but it’s flimsy and not actually used by many of the canon spells. If you don’t care about being creative with magic then you might not care about this. To me it makes it feel very rigid and mechanical.
There are so many other ways you could do magic.
You could raise this about any card in Magic: The Gathering as well, and I think the answer is just “balance”. I don’t know that I’ve found myself in a position where we needed a spell to be created. For me at least, some amount of rigidity is very much appreciated on my end when the fiction involves literal magic, because it breaks the rigid laws of nature by definition.
What? My complaint wasn’t that you can move and attack. It’s that that’s typically all you do. … I think pf2e also changed it so you get 3 actions.
Someone described the PF2e 3 action mechanics to me, and there are parts of it that I like, but at the end of the day, it incentivizes different behaviors and isn’t necessarily better or worse. What would you like to do on your turn other than move and attack (which also ignores class-specific options you get for your bonus action, as well as other types of regular actions you might take for one reason or another)? What choices do you make differently when movement is treated equally to attacking as opposed to movement being use-it-or-lose-it? It affects how it feels, and it’s great that there are other systems to mix things up, but I like how 5e handles it.
Yes, but only in a critical success and critical fail. If you’re supposed to always succeed because your character should be able to do the action successfully in their sleep, the DM isn’t even supposed to make you roll. The die may land on any value between 1 and 20, but if the DC is 10 and you have +7 to your roll, you’ve eliminated failures from 3-9 on the d20. I’m well aware of how the average chance of rolling a given number changes when rolling multiple dice, but I’m not sure why a 3d6 bell curve would be preferable to 1d20 when you’re only looking for a binary success or failure.
I forgot to bring up in my rant that DND has no concept of “degree of success” outside of unique effects like the sprite’s poison. So that sucks, too.
I would prefer rolls were weighted towards the average instead of “any result is equally likely”. Imagine you have a wizard and a fighter. They are trying to figure out some arcane riddle. The wizard rolls at +5 (16 int, proficiency). The fighter at +0. They’re looking to hit DC 15, a tricky but not excessive target.
The fighter has a 25% to hit that. The wizard has like a 45% to just flub it. That feels weird to me. I want the wizard to have more reliable outcomes, and less zany “I rolled a 2 lol I can’t read today”.
A dice pool gives you more consistent results.
I also forgot to bring up DND has no concept of fail forward or succeed at a cost.
And I forgot to bring up how insane it is to still have “16 strength is a +3 bonus”.
You could raise this about card in Magic: The Gathering as well, and I think the answer is just “balance”. I don’t know that I’ve found myself in a position where we needed a spell to be created. For me at least, some amount of rigidity is very much appreciated on my end when the fiction involves literal magic, because it breaks the rigid laws of nature by definition.
You’ve never wanted to create your own spell. That’s surprising. There are many spells to pick from, so I guess that could be.
Even discarding the “make your own spell effects” for the moment, the fact that they all work basically the same is boring. Declare your action, check off the spell slot box.
Off the top of my head you could do like
every spell cast in the scene has some effect
increase failure rate
increase potency
some spells have preconditions
require specific actions
spell C requires B and A to be cast first
spell requires blood drawn from the victim first
context (phase of moon, for example)
spells must be made very specific for their targets and outcomes ahead of time. You don’t prepare fireball. You prepare “Blow up Carl”.
You could build whole classes, whole games, around that shit, and I just popped that out without any real thought. DND magic by comparison is extremely bland, safe, and mechanical. None of that is how you would typically describe magic.
Someone described the PF2e 3 action mechanics to me, and there are parts of it that I like, but at the end of the day, it incentivizes different behaviors and isn’t necessarily better or worse. What would you like to do on your turn other than move and attack (which also ignores class-specific options you get for your bonus action, as well as other types of regular actions you might take for one reason or another)? What choices do you make differently when movement is treated equally to attacking as opposed to movement being use-it-or-lose-it? It affects how it feels, and it’s great that there are other systems to mix things up, but I like how 5e handles it.
I don’t know what I said that has you stuck on literal movement. I must have said “move” when I meant “take your turn” at some point. Moving in space isn’t that important.
Anyway. First off, making a single attack is boring. Especially when you play with slow players. Especially when you miss and nothing happens. They should probably get rid of missing as a common possibility, come to think of it.
You get like a minute of activity and then wait 10 minutes for everyone else to go. There’s not really much tactical or narrative depth. You don’t really get to decide much. Especially if you’re not using flanking rules.
Something where you can make decisions and tradeoffs might be nice. Some sort of action point pool where you can decide how much goes into offense vs how much you keep for defense. Or something like fate’s “create an advantage” where you can do something to set up someone (maybe future you) for a slam dunk. Some sort of succeed at a cost mechanic, perhaps.
Or even just giving multiple attacks earlier would help. The odds shift towards “maybe something will happen” then.
I also forgot to rant about hit points. That’s a classic topic though you’ve probably read it before. But man, playing a game where health is constrained makes so much more sense to me. None of that “this bandit is fifth level so he can take 5 axe blows” weirdness.
Let me know if I missed replying to anything important. Doing this on my phone is hard.
I want the wizard to have more reliable outcomes, and less zany “I rolled a 2 lol I can’t read today”.
But in that example, it’s not that he can’t read today, it’s that in this case, he failed to decipher the riddle, and you or the DM role play exactly why that is.
A dice pool gives you more consistent results.
Which is why damage works that way in 5e. It was a conscious decision. I don’t see what benefit there is for a consistent bump in the middle of your dice results when you’re looking for success or failure, other than the fact that d6 dice are far more common to have on hand than d20.
And I forgot to bring up how insane it is to still have “16 strength is a +3 bonus”.
This is one of the few things in 5e I’d actually say I have a problem with. I understand that PF2e flattened this, which is good.
You could build whole classes, whole games, around that shit, and I just popped that out without any real thought. DND magic by comparison is extremely bland, safe, and mechanical. None of that is how you would typically describe magic.
But predictable mechanics mean that I can plan tactically, and I like the tactical battle map aspect of RPGs. That goes in to your ability to miss an attack as well. You can’t guarantee success, but you can influence your odds in a bunch of ways and take critical chances when they matter most.
You get like a minute of activity and then wait 10 minutes for everyone else to go.
This may vary by DM, but I’m still actively engaged in deducing HP, AC, and any other relevant values about the things we’re fighting while it’s not my turn, and our DM accommodates us doing that.
But in that example, it’s not that he can’t read today, it’s that in this case, he failed to decipher the riddle, and you or the DM role play exactly why that is.
That’s thin meat for roleplaying, and probably discouraging for the wizard who wants to be smart.
I don’t see what benefit there is for a consistent bump in the middle of your dice results when you’re looking for success or failure,
I like being consistently good at stuff. Every time I flub it on like a 5 I’m annoyed. Like, this is my character’s high concept why do I still have a huge chance of beefing it. With, again, little to no mechanics to succeed at a cost or fail forward.
I don’t feel the same way when a dice pool betrays me. If I roll [6, 2, 5, 4, 7] in Mage I can look at it and go “wow, I guess I fucked up”. Feels different when it’s just 1d20 comes out with a 3.
But predictable mechanics mean that I can plan tactically,
You can have understandable mechanics with the stuff I described. And about as predictable as regular DND, where people can pass or fail checks.
Some of what I described would open whole new tactical fronts. Like, if you have spell sequences, you’d want to consider how far to let an enemy go before you really need to deal with them. Or if you want to try to plan around your wizard using them.
Anything where the spell doesn’t fire instantly also opens new fronts.
I also forgot to complain how magic doesn’t get interrupted in 5e. You used to be able to interrupt casters by getting up in their face. I see why they removed it- players don’t like it, too hard, losing your spell sucks- but it removed an important depth.
All of this would kind of be dragged down by spells-per-rest, but that’s a separate topic .
You can’t guarantee success, but you can influence your odds in a bunch of ways
5e has vanishingly few ways of influencing the odds. No flanking. Expensive aid-another/teamwork. No situational bonuses. Few resources to dip into. I’m assuming a party that’s like levels 1-5 because that’s where most people play, and without a lot of magic items because that’s the default game assumption. Because the magic item rules are so thin, you can actually patch a lot of these problems with items. But that’s a patch.
This may vary by DM, but I’m still actively engaged in deducing HP, AC, and any other relevant values about the things we’re fighting while it’s not my turn, and our DM accommodates us doing that.
This is extremely metagamey, and not very interesting to me. Some DMs just tell you the numbers. And even so, that’s only so much you can do until you figure it out.
Compare Fate for example. You can defend someone else on their turn. Shit, I forgot, DND doesn’t even have this concept. But yeah, in Fate you’re engaged when other people are going because you might need to leap in to defend them, or spend a fate point to help them out. That’s engaging with the game a lot more than “I wonder what their AC is?”
I think at this point we might have to chalk this up to we want different things from games, and have different preferences. Some people like mayonnaise. That’s okay.
That’s thin meat for roleplaying, and probably discouraging for the wizard who wants to be smart.
You still get to be smart most of the time due to where you put your points and proficiencies, but you’re not all-knowing.
I like being consistently good at stuff.
But that makes you consistently middle of the road. The 1d20 still has that modifier to make you consistently good.
You used to be able to interrupt casters by getting up in their face. I see why they removed it- players don’t like it, too hard, losing your spell sucks- but it removed an important depth.
I don’t like it for similar reasons. It’s that thing where you said sometimes you miss, but I think it feels worse.
5e has vanishingly few ways of influencing the odds. No flanking. Expensive aid-another/teamwork. No situational bonuses. Few resources to dip into.
We play with +2 flanking rules. There are situational advantage rolls and such. Classes start with their resources quite early on.
You can defend someone else on their turn. Shit, I forgot, DND doesn’t even have this concept.
You can ready an action to trigger under certain conditions.
Some people like mayonnaise.
A ton of people like mayonnaise. I’m really not trying to pick a fight with you, and I appreciate this discussion, but you’ve been trying to say how bad mayonnaise is this whole time when I like mayonnaise, haha. At other times, I’ll be interested in other condiments too, but mayonnaise is good on a lot of food, and it’s easy to come by.
Plot twist: I like mayonnaise. To extend this metaphor, I’m just sick of it after eating nothing but mayo for a few years.
I appreciate you being patient. I’m not the most persuasive writer (especially on my phone), but I hope at least some of what I wrote gave you stuff to think about.
Ultimately, if you’re having fun with your group that’s what matters most. It sounds like you are. Would you have more or less fun with a different system? Maybe. I think it’s good to try different stuff, but the primary goal remains having fun with friends.
It’s just that when I’ve seen so many problems in other systems that this one solves, it’s astounding that someone can say the Larian DNA is the only thing making BG3 playable, haha.
The modifier doesn’t make the probability less flat. You have an equal chance of getting every value on the die, so the worst and best outcome are equally likely. Compare to like 3d6. There’s only one way to roll a 3 [1,1,1], but a bunch of ways to roll an 8 ([4,3,1], [3,3,2], [6,1,1], etc)
Go look at https://anydice.com/ . The default should be 3d6 and you see a nice curve. Change it to 1d20 and it’s flat. 5% for everything. Change it to 1d20+5 and it’s still flat, just with bigger numbers.
Your odds of success change in that when you’re looking to roll a 15 you’re more likely to fail than when you’re looking for a 12, but at all times, for any check, you’re just as likely to get an extreme result as an average. That’s weird.
When you are creating a spell, how do you know what level it should be? How do you know what effects it should have? There’s some guidance in the DMG but it’s flimsy and not actually used by many of the canon spells. If you don’t care about being creative with magic then you might not care about this. To me it makes it feel very rigid and mechanical.
There are so many other ways you could do magic.
What? My complaint wasn’t that you can move and attack. It’s that that’s typically all you do. You move 30’ and make a single attack. Go read “create an advantage” in the fate-srd for a glimpse of how things could be different. Some DMs will let you interact with the environment, but that’s highly DM dependent and uncodified.
At higher levels at least you tend to get more stuff you can do on your turn.
I think pf2e also changed it so you get 3 actions.
Yes, but only in a critical success and critical fail. If you’re supposed to always succeed because your character should be able to do the action successfully in their sleep, the DM isn’t even supposed to make you roll. The die may land on any value between 1 and 20, but if the DC is 10 and you have +7 to your roll, you’ve eliminated failures from 3-9 on the d20. I’m well aware of how the average chance of rolling a given number changes when rolling multiple dice, but I’m not sure why a 3d6 bell curve would be preferable to 1d20 when you’re only looking for a binary success or failure.
You could raise this about any card in Magic: The Gathering as well, and I think the answer is just “balance”. I don’t know that I’ve found myself in a position where we needed a spell to be created. For me at least, some amount of rigidity is very much appreciated on my end when the fiction involves literal magic, because it breaks the rigid laws of nature by definition.
Someone described the PF2e 3 action mechanics to me, and there are parts of it that I like, but at the end of the day, it incentivizes different behaviors and isn’t necessarily better or worse. What would you like to do on your turn other than move and attack (which also ignores class-specific options you get for your bonus action, as well as other types of regular actions you might take for one reason or another)? What choices do you make differently when movement is treated equally to attacking as opposed to movement being use-it-or-lose-it? It affects how it feels, and it’s great that there are other systems to mix things up, but I like how 5e handles it.
I forgot to bring up in my rant that DND has no concept of “degree of success” outside of unique effects like the sprite’s poison. So that sucks, too.
I would prefer rolls were weighted towards the average instead of “any result is equally likely”. Imagine you have a wizard and a fighter. They are trying to figure out some arcane riddle. The wizard rolls at +5 (16 int, proficiency). The fighter at +0. They’re looking to hit DC 15, a tricky but not excessive target.
The fighter has a 25% to hit that. The wizard has like a 45% to just flub it. That feels weird to me. I want the wizard to have more reliable outcomes, and less zany “I rolled a 2 lol I can’t read today”.
A dice pool gives you more consistent results.
I also forgot to bring up DND has no concept of fail forward or succeed at a cost.
And I forgot to bring up how insane it is to still have “16 strength is a +3 bonus”.
You’ve never wanted to create your own spell. That’s surprising. There are many spells to pick from, so I guess that could be.
Even discarding the “make your own spell effects” for the moment, the fact that they all work basically the same is boring. Declare your action, check off the spell slot box.
Off the top of my head you could do like
You could build whole classes, whole games, around that shit, and I just popped that out without any real thought. DND magic by comparison is extremely bland, safe, and mechanical. None of that is how you would typically describe magic.
I don’t know what I said that has you stuck on literal movement. I must have said “move” when I meant “take your turn” at some point. Moving in space isn’t that important.
Anyway. First off, making a single attack is boring. Especially when you play with slow players. Especially when you miss and nothing happens. They should probably get rid of missing as a common possibility, come to think of it.
You get like a minute of activity and then wait 10 minutes for everyone else to go. There’s not really much tactical or narrative depth. You don’t really get to decide much. Especially if you’re not using flanking rules.
Something where you can make decisions and tradeoffs might be nice. Some sort of action point pool where you can decide how much goes into offense vs how much you keep for defense. Or something like fate’s “create an advantage” where you can do something to set up someone (maybe future you) for a slam dunk. Some sort of succeed at a cost mechanic, perhaps.
Or even just giving multiple attacks earlier would help. The odds shift towards “maybe something will happen” then.
I also forgot to rant about hit points. That’s a classic topic though you’ve probably read it before. But man, playing a game where health is constrained makes so much more sense to me. None of that “this bandit is fifth level so he can take 5 axe blows” weirdness.
Let me know if I missed replying to anything important. Doing this on my phone is hard.
But in that example, it’s not that he can’t read today, it’s that in this case, he failed to decipher the riddle, and you or the DM role play exactly why that is.
Which is why damage works that way in 5e. It was a conscious decision. I don’t see what benefit there is for a consistent bump in the middle of your dice results when you’re looking for success or failure, other than the fact that d6 dice are far more common to have on hand than d20.
This is one of the few things in 5e I’d actually say I have a problem with. I understand that PF2e flattened this, which is good.
But predictable mechanics mean that I can plan tactically, and I like the tactical battle map aspect of RPGs. That goes in to your ability to miss an attack as well. You can’t guarantee success, but you can influence your odds in a bunch of ways and take critical chances when they matter most.
This may vary by DM, but I’m still actively engaged in deducing HP, AC, and any other relevant values about the things we’re fighting while it’s not my turn, and our DM accommodates us doing that.
That’s thin meat for roleplaying, and probably discouraging for the wizard who wants to be smart.
I like being consistently good at stuff. Every time I flub it on like a 5 I’m annoyed. Like, this is my character’s high concept why do I still have a huge chance of beefing it. With, again, little to no mechanics to succeed at a cost or fail forward.
I don’t feel the same way when a dice pool betrays me. If I roll [6, 2, 5, 4, 7] in Mage I can look at it and go “wow, I guess I fucked up”. Feels different when it’s just 1d20 comes out with a 3.
You can have understandable mechanics with the stuff I described. And about as predictable as regular DND, where people can pass or fail checks.
Some of what I described would open whole new tactical fronts. Like, if you have spell sequences, you’d want to consider how far to let an enemy go before you really need to deal with them. Or if you want to try to plan around your wizard using them.
Anything where the spell doesn’t fire instantly also opens new fronts.
I also forgot to complain how magic doesn’t get interrupted in 5e. You used to be able to interrupt casters by getting up in their face. I see why they removed it- players don’t like it, too hard, losing your spell sucks- but it removed an important depth.
All of this would kind of be dragged down by spells-per-rest, but that’s a separate topic .
5e has vanishingly few ways of influencing the odds. No flanking. Expensive aid-another/teamwork. No situational bonuses. Few resources to dip into. I’m assuming a party that’s like levels 1-5 because that’s where most people play, and without a lot of magic items because that’s the default game assumption. Because the magic item rules are so thin, you can actually patch a lot of these problems with items. But that’s a patch.
This is extremely metagamey, and not very interesting to me. Some DMs just tell you the numbers. And even so, that’s only so much you can do until you figure it out.
Compare Fate for example. You can defend someone else on their turn. Shit, I forgot, DND doesn’t even have this concept. But yeah, in Fate you’re engaged when other people are going because you might need to leap in to defend them, or spend a fate point to help them out. That’s engaging with the game a lot more than “I wonder what their AC is?”
I think at this point we might have to chalk this up to we want different things from games, and have different preferences. Some people like mayonnaise. That’s okay.
You still get to be smart most of the time due to where you put your points and proficiencies, but you’re not all-knowing.
But that makes you consistently middle of the road. The 1d20 still has that modifier to make you consistently good.
I don’t like it for similar reasons. It’s that thing where you said sometimes you miss, but I think it feels worse.
We play with +2 flanking rules. There are situational advantage rolls and such. Classes start with their resources quite early on.
You can ready an action to trigger under certain conditions.
A ton of people like mayonnaise. I’m really not trying to pick a fight with you, and I appreciate this discussion, but you’ve been trying to say how bad mayonnaise is this whole time when I like mayonnaise, haha. At other times, I’ll be interested in other condiments too, but mayonnaise is good on a lot of food, and it’s easy to come by.
Plot twist: I like mayonnaise. To extend this metaphor, I’m just sick of it after eating nothing but mayo for a few years.
I appreciate you being patient. I’m not the most persuasive writer (especially on my phone), but I hope at least some of what I wrote gave you stuff to think about.
Ultimately, if you’re having fun with your group that’s what matters most. It sounds like you are. Would you have more or less fun with a different system? Maybe. I think it’s good to try different stuff, but the primary goal remains having fun with friends.
It’s just that when I’ve seen so many problems in other systems that this one solves, it’s astounding that someone can say the Larian DNA is the only thing making BG3 playable, haha.
I honestly forgot that’s how this thread started.
I think I would have liked it better if it wasn’t so dnd5e, but DND is definitely playable.
I mean, I enjoyed Solasta, too, and that doesn’t have any of the larian magic in it.