In your opinion what’s the difference between the two? In my opinion both terms are frequently used interchangeably in the workplace.
But I’d like to consider myself as an engineer, because although I don’t consider myself to be good at it, I think I cares about the software that I worked on, its interaction with other services, the big picture, and different kinds of small optimizations.
I mean, what is even engineering?
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Considering the almost complete lack of standards, certification, licensing in most areas of programming, I don’t think there’s a ton of difference.
I’ve held both titles without rhyme or reason between the two. Even in areas requiring high compliance - HIPAA, PCI/DSS, NIST Standards, FERPA, etc - training achieved doesn’t tend to be reflected in a programmer’s title. (Even while the same level of training turns into acronym soup among their IT peers.)
One way I try to live up to the title “Engineer” - even when I don’t wear it - is by holding myself to the Engineering Code of Ethics.
One of the issues is that devs don’t know about the normal engineering certifying body (at least in the US). One of the problems with that body was its expectation that a software engineer also know other forms of engineering. For example, a chemical engineer needs to know some civil and industrial engineering to get their certification. It’s almost nonsensical to ask someone building cloud apps to understand the principles of chemical engineering unless their work is in chemical engineering.
I know a ton of engineers that don’t view software as a field that can use the term because of its lack of certification.
Superb for including the Engineering Code of Ethics which I didn’t know exsisted! In my decades of working on every part of Computer Systems, Information Systems, unfortunately, I personally think if you work for Big Tech, you cannot abide those Code of Ethics. From the website>
Fundamental Canons
Engineers, in the fulfillment of their professional duties, shall:
- Hold paramount the safety, health, and welfare of the public.
- Perform services only in areas of their competence.
- Issue public statements only in an objective and truthful manner.
- Act for each employer or client as faithful agents or trustees.
- Avoid deceptive acts.
- Conduct themselves honorably, responsibly, ethically, and lawfully so as to enhance the honor, reputation, and usefulness of the profession.
How many Google Code Monkeys violate 1 or more of those on the daily? For instance in Canon 1, it does not say profit is paramount, but that public welfare is paramount. In fact, you could argue that is a competing objective working for Big Tech and following ethics.
Poorly defined nomenclature. Simple as that. I’m an “automation engineer”, have had many other titles, but anytime I write what I do, like LinkedIn or such, I write “programmer”, because it is simple, descriptive, and I like it. I’m old, but I used to like ”hacker” until it came to imply nefarious programming.
Poorly defined nomenclature. Simple as that. I’m an “automation engineer”, have had many other titles (…)
Anyone can call themselves what they feel like it. However, in some jurisdictions and contexts the title “engineer” does have a specific meaning, consisting of someone who not only has the necessary and sufficient training but also is a member of a specific professional body. These credentials have meaning and those who try to pass themselves off as one without having the certification or credentials might be breaking laws.
In the tech industry, “software engineer” is mostly a job title for people who spend much of their workday writing code, and much of the rest of it in meetings talking about what code needs to be rewritten to meet new business goals.
Most of the people with “software engineer” titles are not advancing the state of the art in any field; rather, they are applying known programming and systems-design techniques to solve problems that arise from business decisions and circumstances. They are doing so with diligence and care, using skills that most people don’t have. But building a new user interface, or a new HTTPS load balancer, out of existing parts, requires very little invention and quite a lot of attention to detail.
Caring about the quality of your work is not unique to people who call themselves “engineers”. A car mechanic can pride themselves on doing good work, even if they never design an original car. Being able to accurately diagnose problems by listening to a weird noise is a valuable skill!
Quite a lot of people who work on software could be fairly described as technicians or craftspeople – competent practitioners of a skilled trade, who make the systems they work on perform better and more reliably, refit them to the needs of the moment, repair them when they’ve exhibited problems.
I had an “engineer” title (Software Engineer or Site Reliability Engineer) for a decade, and I think almost all use of the “E” word is a silly pretense. I was an internet systems technician and occasionally a web backend programmer. My job wasn’t to design new machinery; it was to adapt and fiddle with existing machinery to make it work right, to plan deployments, to measure performance and tweak it until it was adequate.
In a lot of places, engineering is a regulated field, meaning you need a certificate to call yourself an engineer. e.g. this lawsuit.
Guess im not an engineer in canada
but what if you are
It’s a huge faff, you will get a different answer from every person you ask. They’re used interchangeably, and it just doesn’t matter.
To entertain your prompt. Real world engineers (structural, etc.) aren’t entrusted the title because they “care” about what they build, it’s because they have to be correct, and as such, they follow extremely rigid process and take the time to never be wrong. Obviously I do not have real world structural engineering experience, but I think we can all agree on this from an outside point of view.
That’s not how software works most of the time, and it’s even heavily discouraged in a lot of the industry. We learn from failure, and the consequences of software failing are nil compared to the consequences of a bridge failing. This is a huge superpower of software, not a weakness, or some sign of deficiency. It is the key reason software evolves so quickly. Software engineers (or developers, alchemists, whatever) are allowed to fail, learn from mistakes, and improve. They can test completely new, never been done ideas, nearly for free, and nearly instantly.
Again, I don’t really care though what the industry wants to call it, developer or engineer. It doesn’t matter and it’s all made up anyway.
I quite like the term Software Alchemist.
To me, the words “engineer” and “developer” both imply that a well thought out and structured plan is in place for them to do their job. Not so with “alchemist”, which implies a fair amount of experimentation and uncertainty, both of which are very common in the software industry.
It’s always been one of my favorite ways of describing the job :)
A dev work on some code. It works, great, job done.
An engineer comes to see this work. It hasn’t been thoroughly tested, it only works on the dev computer in his coding environment. There is no documentation. There is no comments in the code. Half the features are missing because the story didn’t talk about them. Installing the “software” is made by hand and only one person knows how to do that. Some libraries are used with various licences, some are outdated, some can’t be maintained, some will download stuff on their own. Performances are shit. I certainly forget a lot of stuff.
Now the engineer will work to solve all these non code problems.
Now the problem is that software companies don’t care about engineers because they have managers. Managers will consider engineers like developers and ask them to work like developers. They will also tell the engineer that his lunacies are too time consuming, which means too expensive, so they will go in the backlog and be forgotten.
Yes I’m disillusioned and depressed about working in software development. It’s not like this everywhere. Some companies have an engineering culture. Especially when they come from older industries, like electronics or car etc. But I haven’t had the chance to work in one for 5 years now.
Holy shit can confirm. Am also fighting off some burnout or depression or both?
Get called out for being slow, yet their “fast” development time seems to be related to the projects we have to keep revisiting as they keep failing publicly 🤔
Like yea it needs to be delivered, but do we really want to be so careless with employee and customer trust? Also, wouldn’t there be value in keeping things structured well enough to be consistent with our delivery times?
I get that it can be polished later but later never seems to come. The tech debt just keeps stacking and I find myself being the only one scraping up the turds.
I feel like I’m being gaslighted sometimes…
I’ve seen this time and time again and it breaks my heart. In a Tron way, I wish all users could ingest this and then make reforms to the Industry. Profit at all costs makes users poor.
In my company everyone is called Software Development Engineer 🤷♂️
Well, if I remember my software engineering prof correctly, software engineering is mostly about bringing an engineering mindset to software development. You wouldn’t just slapdash an airplane together in a weekend and shove it out on the runway. There’s a process for making sure we don’t kill people with deadly flying contraptions.
Software engineering is that same idea applied to software systems. There is a process for making sure we do our job without causing undo harm. You wouldn’t want to just slapdash together something that has to be HIPAA compliant and has to meet other security regulations. You plan. You test. You revise. You ensure the product doesn’t publish the sensitive medical records of every patient on the front page before it ends up in production. That is the work of a software engineer.
That is the work of a software engineer.
To build upon this, we need to keep in mind that at least in some jurisdictions the role of a certified engineer is only required in projects with relevant size, and the responsibility of that engineer is to ensure the project complies with all requirements and therefore be held responsible for any mishap. This means that it’s perfectly fine if non-engineers work independently on complex tasks, provided that an engineer attests that their output is fine and takes responsibility in case it isn’t and it causes problems.
I really like this answer, because now I’m confident that I’m at least acting as an engineer. Thanks!
This whole thread was weird to read as a Canadian:
In Canada the title “engineer” is a legally protected term. You can’t legally call yourself a software engineer without going through the Engineers Canada accreditation.
You are a software engineer if you are an engineer in good standing. Calling yourself a software engineer without accreditation is fraud.
Edit: I was curious, so I looked it up. The exact same is true in the US:The title engineer is a protected title, that’s protected in law, and it’s been protected for over 100 years.Edit 2: Don’t believe everything you read online, lol. See below re: the US
I’m not sure where you’re quoting from, but as far as I can see, only “Professional Engineer”, “Licensed Engineer”, and “Registered Engineer” are protected in the US.
I fixed my comment above. Thanks for the correction.
Canadian Engineering Associations will actually get you for illegally labeling yourself an Engineer. I did a software developer program and after graduating a few people decided to start calling themselves engineers. The organization contacted each person individually and I belive the program coordinator. It is a serious title here, it is the same as a healthcare worker calling themselves an RN without being registered with the nursing college.
I think it’s just a “branding” difference. I was at a company once that changed everyone’s titles from developer to engineer. It was mostly done cause engineer was more hip.
I think developer was more used a decade ago. I would not be surprised if it cycles back at some point. It’s just like clothes fashion or whatever.
If someone flies the “software engineer” banner seriously, I expect them to have some theoretic knowledge besides the practical one. They would know different programming paradigms (procedural, OOP, FP), know about programming patterns, layers, UML, and at least a programming language or 4 (3 superficial, 1 in-depth).
A software developer can be any random code-monkey picked up from the street that is self-taught and/or had a boot camp of sorts. Nothing wrong with being self-taught or boot camps, as SDs need to eat, but it lacks a certain level or rigor I would expect from a SE.
If both had a certain amount of experience the SD would mostly catch up to the SE, in practice. Not sure if on theoretic knowledge too, but that depends.
I have been a network engineer with no degree for many years, but I did have a lot of certs. It’d be nice if there were something similar for programming. But I’ve never seen anyone care that much about the engineer title. I’ve always thought it’s someone who understands his craft/engine design in and out, but doesn’t design it himself. The architect designs it. The tech can perform documented solutions
This is probably the most well-researched piece of writing on the matter: https://www.hillelwayne.com/post/are-we-really-engineers/
NGL I think that’s a pretty crappy article. Very little of it is research, it’s just assertions and arguing his POV philosophically. He also gets basic things wrong, and says “civil engineers work on buildings.”
The research is the interviews he did with engineers. That sentence is obviously a simplification, especially since he immediately follows it with one about talking to a civil engineer who builds mines.
I hold an M.Sc. in software Engineering and it is not just a “software developer” but an actual masters degree from an engineering university. It’s a civil engineering degree with focus on software and systems that runs software (e.g embedded systems). It is a protected title by law in many countries. I think Americans started abusing the software Engineer title a decade or two ago and hence many think it is just a title anyone can use as they like.
At least 25 years ago (correction: 25 years and 3 months since I was hired as a software engineer in America without an engineering degree).
And did you really compare a software dev with a BSc against your MSc (not a MEng?) and compare those apples and oranges as if they were peers?
Im not sure about America now, but in my country the title “P.Eng” (professional engineer) is restricted by law to those who have gained a degree as an engineer specifically, B.Eng or bigger, and have written a subsequent certification exam.
Not sure what you mean about your apples and pears comparison thing. Around here we have two levels of engineering - diploma engineer and civil engineer and that’s also the title you get.
Due to some countries not understanding this differentiation, we use the more common B.Sc for Diploma and M.Sc. for civil. You can then specialize in different areas like software, electronics, AI, health tech, and many more. So basically we have all the engineering courses + the special courses on top.
I am in my first job that’s a full-on “software engineer” title, which is a move I wanted to make. However, leading up to it I have a 20 year engineering career covering various aspects of electronics as well as software.
What I work on is C/C++ that runs the company’s main industrial product, and not some more mainstream web or app development. So it’s software work as part of a multidisciplinary team to design or improve a physical product.
So for those reasons I only think of myself as an “engineer.” But I can totally see how other jobs using similar skills would be more “software dev” or even “I’m in IT.”
IMO an engineer should be able to develop a complex system which an entire company could potentially be based upon.
A developer who isn’t an engineer would focus more on individual libraries, apps or tools that don’t necessarily require the mindset of an engineer to design and maintain.
