What the fuck is this comment section even? Is vape vs cig the new Star Trek vs Star Wars, where fans of either side congregate to tear into each other with enough vitriol to make both vape and cig look healthy in comparison?
Each new import batch from Reddit these days is lower quality :)
You been on the internet lately?
Every single thing is like this now. It’s always some “i’m right, the other guys are idiots!”
Before the Internet was popular there were decals being sold of Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes pissing on the logo for Ford or Chevy.
I’m sure dueling fandoms have been around longer than that, too.
Yeah, I know, but this one seems more vicious to me somehow.
My mistake is that I keep thinking the best of people, but after having been a cynic misanthropist for long enough, I’d prefer the regular disappointment over permanent bitterness.
At least on Reddit, i was getting blasted because I pointed out vapers here in Australia were constantly breaking the laws and were using vaping as an excuse to vape inside “because it’s just water vapor”.
If it’s just water vapor, then you don’t need to do it in the cabin of a train mate… or right at the entrance of the supermarket so every one needs to breathe in your smoke when they enter
Over smokers in general.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but personally, I’ve run out of fucks to give about the whole debate. I have an opinion, sure, but I don’t want to throw it into the sewage pool that is the discussion in this comment section.
Thats definitely fair… To be honest, I keep deleting my account on reddit / Lemmy to keep out of the debates.
With barely an ounce of fact or dialogue. It’s from such a personal place. Weird and sad. I agree with another comment - this is mostly the internet now.
I was recently in Europe. It’s not even about health. Guys, stop it, you smell like shit.
Ah yes Europe, the mythical country.
Europe is a geological region where most countries share a lot of cultural ties with each other, including the smoking culture.
And my mom
Likely, if she weights <70kg and her name is not Karen 😂😂
Potentially, they could have visited multiple countries. Or maybe they don’t want to partially doxx themselves.
Are you seriously trying to argue that “europeans” isn’t a valid characterization of a group of people with some common traits, you absolute muppet?
As someone you would call “European” there are massive cultural, behavioural and religious differences in Europe.
Not the differences you imagine like NJ vs California vs Texas, much more
And you know what? It’s a good thing and nobody wants to change that. After centuries we even stopped having fun at each other.
Diversity is scientifically and provably good for creativity that in turn is good for everything humans do
In the case of smoking, you can go to an extreme (Berlin) where people smoke in the clubs (even if it is forbidden) to another extreme (Dublin) that is pretty much like US
While I agree with most of what you said, I think you are underestimating the huge cultural differences between NJ, CA, and TX. They very much feel like entirely different countries. Very big differences in culture, linguistics, religion, etc.
USA -> States is very similar to EU -> member countries. I understand that within the EU, member countries have their own concept of “states” that are very similar to the US, but I don’t believe most EU countries prioritize local regions over their country as much as the US does. Keep in mind, Europe as a whole is only slightly bigger than the USA (10m sq k vs 9m sq k)
For instance, someone from Texas self-identifies as a Texan first, and then an American second. It’s why one of the first things an American asks when meeting a new American is “where are you from”. The state they’re from will (usually but not always) tell you a lot about them, their priorities, what their culture is, etc.
Personally I think it’s stupid (I’m not a big fan of “states rights”), but I’m very much in the minority in that.
Not the differences you imagine like NJ vs California vs Texas, much more
Dude, Texans fucking hate Californians and and East Coasters.
They share the same citizenship and language but they almost certainly hate each other more than a typical European country hates it’s neighbors because of core value differences.
UK+EU members might hate each other for historical reasons but generally they all hold similar core values. Good ones BTW. Democracy is good.
I live in the midwestern US and if I could I’d have it’s culture swallowed up by the east coast’s culture (except maybe the food) because its pretty fucking boring and backwards in many respects anyway. The only reason I still live here is because I’m poor but I kind of hate midwestern culture.
Diversity is scientifically and provably good for creativity that in turn is good for everything humans do
Diversity is good, smoking is bad. So are Texas’s anti-abortion and anti-trans bills, which is fueled by Texas’s reactionary culture which diverges from Cali and NJ. Including unhealthy or even straight up death cult ideas as a form of “diversity” seems… ill advised.
My point is, sometimes things are just bad and serve no beneficial purpose and can’t be justified on the basis of “diversity”. Smoking culture is one.
Did I say all of Europe is the same? Or did I say Europeans have some common traits? Get a grip.
Maybe y’all Americans all have the same commodified culture managed by a hedge funds but in Europe, every country has a rich culture and its own identity+way of life.
I don’t get the same vibe at all from France and Germany or the Netherlands. I see similarities and a common history which makes the cultural ramification even more telling and insightful
Not American. Try again without the chip on your shoulder.
What are the common traits of someone from Finland and one from Greece?
They both have a higher percentage of smokers than the US.
Finland 20.7%, USA 23.6%, according to world population review.com and one of the few sources I could find that mentions both the USA and finland. So you’re wrong there. (Globalactiontoendsmoking.org has similar numbers, btw)
Also, you said traits. Plural. But yeah, easier to make up shit and pretend you’re right and then stop replying when proven wrong than just be mature and say “my bad”.
Whoops. I pulled a statistic from 2009. Anyway, here’s another one: they both love public baths. Do you really think you’ll come out on top while arguing Finland and Greece have zero common traits? Do you realize how insane that is?
Saunas are popular in Finland, true. Not so much in Greece. And the Hellenic/Roman public baths, which are quite different from saunas, btw, haven’t actually remained popular in modern Greece nor Italy.
I never said they have zero common traits, but not enough for us to be one big culture or anything close to that. Common traits you can find between Norway and Zimbabwe. Or USA and Japan. Or Nepal and Argentina. Saying “europeans do x” is like saying “Asians do x” or “black people do y”. That’s what’s insane… That you somehow fail to see that. I was recently in Thailand. I guess I know what Asians are like now. AmA!
For a vape go in a 5km radius of a school.
At least it is organic and not biohazard like US🤣😂
Second hand smoke isn’t a biohazard? It literally causes cancer…
It increases the risk of getting cancer! Your sentence implies that you get it each time you are exposed. However, there is a subtle difference between being really attacked by a lion or being in the territory of a lion. In the first case you are highly likely done, in the second you have a chance to get out complete and healthy. And also: when and how are often two important questions.
Why I am saying this: I knew two guys in my family, who smoked from young like chimneys. They died old (>90) and not due to lung cancer! But perhaps in their times (50-90) the cigarettes were less toxic, who knows 🤷♂️
Do you truly believe that?
Or just stop smoking?
Not an option in France
i quit for a year and a half, then i made the conscious choice to get back on it because life is so utterly shit i might as well enjoy my vices
Hey look it’s a person who’s never been addicted to anything
No, no… they’re onto something.
Ignoring the realities of addiction is what they’re onto
The reality is that it is hard to quit, but even addicts who haven’t even tried will tell you that. I think it should be encouraged.
It is, in fact, possible to quite smoking. I was a regular smoker for a decade. My fiancee asked me to quit, so I did. Haven’t had a cigarette or vape since. That was over a decade ago.
Yes, it’s difficult, and not everyone is able to quit as easily as I did. But don’t pretend like it’s impossible to quit.
I’m not pretending it’s impossible. I’m saying that someone whose advice is “well just quit then” doesn’t have a good understanding of the problem.
Asshole, don’t make me smell your shitty tobacco, Atleast vapes conceal the smell
Vapes create a gigantic cloud and it smells quite bad.
Both are bad, but vaping is just even more annoying.
Amen. Its also not just water vapor… If it was people Wouldn’t vape. A lot of people have issues with the garbage they put in vapes… But gigs are worse for me personally.
Cigs are worse objectively, when it comes to health
They don’t, you still stink but now of menthol or whatever other flavour you picked
I mean, I’d much rather smell of fruit custard than smoke.
Except that you aren’t required to use a flavor. I don’t use any flavor for many years and the only thing that could anyone others would be the cloud.
I don’t vape for fun, I vape for my nicotine addiction. The flavors made the switch easier but after the switch, I phased out the flavor. Now I don’t smell like an ashtray but you can see me from a distance and I visualize where my bad breath smell from my lunch and my germs are in the air.
i’m with you on the no flavor thing, I make my own vape juice and I use a box mod, shit’s completely inoffensive and nearly free
I would literally rather stick my nose in a dirty diaper than smell a cigarette. The flavour scents are such a huge improvement that I don’t have the words to properly express this.
reject modernity, embrace tradition
i don’t think highly of people who smoke but I think much less of people who think it’s cool. at least if you’re embarrassed and apologetic about it I will still consider you a person.
Americans are lame, aren’t they?
not in this aspect, they have better attitude towards smoking than most of the world
I wouldn’t say that. In most of the world it is discouraged, but in the US they are zealots when it comes to smoking.
There is nothing criminal about smoking, and people should not be ostracized for it.
It’s a serious public health concern. It affects everyone.
It affects everyone that smokes.
yeah because the smoke carefully avoids nonsmokers.
In my experience it seeks out nonsmoker’s.
It doesn’t affect me to inhale the second-hand smoke of the asshole smoking at the table next to me? I think it does.
So, the health effects of smoking are born only by the smoker? There are no economic impacts on the general public? Not to mention second-hand smoke.
Having a healthier society benefits everyone. Having a large portion of the population engage in behaviors that hurt public health is harmful to everyone.
That isn’t to say it should be illegal necessarily, but it should be heavily discouraged. That includes by government policy.
Because second-hand smoke doesn’t exist…
Fuck smokers! hahaha. Mmm lung cancer, sounds awesome
it should be criminal and people certainly should be ostracized for it. fuck smokers. I’d rather have heroin addicts in my vicinity.
Did a smoker fuck your wife, by any chance?
you’re the one cucking for smokers so I don’t know what you mean. but my wife doesn’t smell like shit all the time so I can safely say no.
smokers infringe on the rights of everyone around them. they can suck shit. hell, they’d probably stink less if they did.
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No.
You don’t pull that thing out for anyone but Harambe, okay?
the implications of this reply are so funny after it got deleted 😭
“No me toques, Frog.”
Plot twist: it was a wax pen.
(American) clock is right twice a day…
Why are you here?
Nah, fuck all these other guys, he was right. 🤣
Jesus Christ Milady posting has made it to Lemmy.
If they used adult diapers instead of toilets in France would you suddenly think it was sophisticated to make us all smell your shitty diaper? So now the rest of us get to choke on your poisonous smoke while you kill yourself slowly. Vaping is just as stupid as smoking but vaping doesn’t force non-smokers to have to smell your nastiness. If you smoke, please just find a faster way to kill yourself; you stink.
If you smoke, please just find a faster way to kill yourself
I think thats a bit too rough, you need to calm down a little :)
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Addiction sucks. I quit 2 years ago. It does feel nice to breathe clearly.
it’s important to remember that these are everyday people who have fallen into an addiction that they desperately would like to quit but can’t.
I do understand your anger though. It is very very annoying and harmful for everyone else around smokers and you are justifiably upset about that.
Instead of being mad at the bottom level people, you should be mad at the billion dollar companies selling people these highly addictive drugs that ruin lives.
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I was addicted to alcohol for a long time. I get that addiction is a rough road but when I drank alcohol, no one was forced to drink with me.
Naah, instead of “forcing” people to drink with you, you ended up blowing way too much money on drinks for a stranger you just met because “you like their face”, bet that person $100 that you could piss in a cup from across the bar, then when the bartender asked you to stop you asked her to “show you her tits”, then punched the stranger you bought a drink for earlier because “you don’t like their face”, then after getting kicked out of the bar you call your ex at 2 in the morning proclaiming your undying love, right before driving wasted to get back home and end up t-boning some poor soul and putting them in the hospital.
Y’know. The standard type of stuff alcoholics do when abusing their drug of choice. But by all means, tell me more about how I’m the worst person on the planet because my cigarette happened to bother you a little, Mr. Chug-A-Lug. 😉
Actually, let me update those wishes a bit: Not only do I hope your kids become smokers, but now I hope one of them gets a fulfilling, high-paying job as a tobacco company executive.
And after that? May your house be struck by lightning and burn to the ground, and the only thing that saves you from living under a bridge is the fact that your wealthy tobacco company executive offspring can afford to just buy you a new house with his hard-earned tobacco blood money, so that way every day you live your life knowing that your existence is subsidized entirely by smokers.
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Okay, how about we compromise? How about I just put up a sign that says “if you don’t like the smoke, get the fuck out of my bar” and that way, you can just choose for yourself whether or not you’d like to give the place your business instead of expecting everyone else there to bend over backwards just to accommodate you?
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Smokers are a minority. Far more people are non-smokers than are smokers. Bar owners who cater to smokers are shooting themselves in the foot.
Wrong. Actually, most club/bar owners really don’t want people like YOU there, because nobody wants you pestering their customers and driving people away.
Lots of people who like to drink, dance and party avoid bars because they don’t like smoke.
^ See, here’s how I know you’re full of BS: I live in a major vacation area and there’s only one single non-smoking club in the entire city.
Hawaii banned smoking in all buildings open to the public and within 100 feet of the entrance of any building open to the public. Not one bar or nightclub was forced to shut down. The idiots were just forced to poison themselves in private.
Then move to Hawaii. I know I’d feel better if people like you were stuck on an island hundreds of miles away from the mainland where you can’t bother the rest of us.
Also, I’d like you to know that every time I encounter an annoying Smoking Nazi like yourself who love giving holier-than-thou lectures about smoking, I instinctually light up a cigarette while they give their anti-smoking lecture, and I intentionally blow the smoke right in their face.
Bro why are you so defensive about a bunch of poison-belching stink bombs?
Presumably because they’re just people, and don’t deserve death wished upon them?
Bro why are you so defensive about a bunch of poison-belching stink bombs?
^ See, funny thing about me is that when you say things like that, my brain actually interprets it as “Not only do I want you to smoke right next to me, but I also I want you to blow all the smoke right in my face after every puff you take”.
Unfathomably based
I hope you have kids and that they start smoking in their angst-ridden rebellious phase and become lifelong smokers because of it.
Not only that, but I also hope every time you get to see your kids, you smell smoke on their clothes and when you do, may it remind you of this time on lemmy when you said all smokers should find a faster way to kill themselves.
Having kids with the world as it is? That is entirely too cruel. Have some heart.
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How come this type of xenophobia is acceptable?
gestures broadly
wat
Anti-american is hot now… I mean it was before too but it is still right now also!
If you’re trying to get lung cancer … get lung cancer with style
If you are going to get cancer, at least look cool.
- The French
Cigarettes look so uncool, though. Hardly a step up from vapes and they fuckin stiiiinnnnk.
I would much rather be near someone vaping their blueberry muffin raztastic whatever than a lit cigarette
I mean, I hate it when I’m walking down a street and I get the stink of something sickly sweet wafting over
I honestly put vapes in the same tier of “takes me out of the moment and ruins anything I’m enjoying then”
It’s gone in a few seconds, unlike actual cigarette smoke
I fuckin hate cigarette smoke, vape isn’t great but it’s also not nearly as long-lasting or staining or… Really at all as bad
Yes, but it’s much more common for people to be walking around and just take a puff of their vape rather than start smoking a cigarette
It absolutely ruins a nice breakfast out when somebody vapes walking past
Vaping can smell like watermelon, Fruit Loops, etc, but then it’s gone. Cigarettes stink up the surrounding area, seep indoors, when people do it at entrances, and it lingers. Plus the smoker themselves will have it clinging to them…
Yeah it’s just a meme, people smoke waaay less in France today. Back in the nineties it was a whole other world.
If you’re used to secondhand smoke they don’t smell bad, even good because of the slight nicotine buzz, and I assume everyone in that country is used to secondhand smoke.
This. I smoked cigs for such a long time, now on vape. It’s 100% better. You feel better, your teeth are better, list goes on. Sure it’s not the best, we all should quit smoking. But it’s better than nasty ass cigs that stay on your clothes, car, makes your teeth yellow and the list goes on.
There is nothing better than a cig, a glass of whiskey, in a hot tub naked on a cold day. But I don’t want that everyday.
Lung cancer or mystery disease/popcorn lung. You choose
Don’t laugh … my wife has pulmonary fibrosis … it’s basically a mysterious inflammation of the lungs with your immune system running haywire. No one knows what causes it or what triggered it … all we know is that it is happening. They suspect it was originally a virus of some kind (this all started about three / four years before the pandemic). There is no cure, there is no remedy, there is no healing, there is no recovery. It only grows worse with time, spreads through the lungs and drowns you to death as you run out of healthy lung to breathe.
Take care of your lungs everyone.
When it hurts to breathe its a particularly frustrating type of pain
I’m sorry man that sounds horrible. I hope for some kind of innovation in this field for your wife
Sadly no … it’s an immune dysfunctional disease … basically a broken immune system that is destroying itself from the inside. It’s a very complex thing to try to figure out. The more we studied it and read about it, the more we began to realize that we are all just living with a very delicate machine inside our bodies … the wrong thing, at the wrong time, in the wrong place, in the right circumstances will trigger your lungs to react and never stop. It can be caused by a fungus, virus, bacteria, dust, pollen, chemicals, particles, whatever. It’s the main reason why we should be careful about what we breathe in, that we shouldn’t smoke and wear masks in industrial, farming, construction, agriculture, commercial kitchens, etc.
It’s like driving around everywhere with a glass ball that you should never break. The glass ball is pretty durable and tough and takes a bit of a beating but if you ever come across something that will break or crack it … you will never be able to get it back to what it was.
My uncle had that. My heart goes out to you both.
Someone in my family had this. Im really sorry that you have to face this. I hope you have a lot of time remaining with them.
Nobody has gotten popcorn lung from vaping
Hah, so that was just a myth. Thanks.
Vaping isn’t carcinogenic.
Vaping is less carcinogenic than smoking by a significant degree but it is carcinogenic
Acrolein, a carcinogen, forms in small amounts from the breakdown of glycerin during heating
If a “dry hit” occurs the effect is worsened, acrolein forms in higher amounts, and formaldehyde (another carcinogen) can occur from the breakdown of both glycerin and propylene glycol
Vaping still leads to inflammation and oxidative stress in the lungs and long term use will almost certainly lead to irreversible damage
Harm reduction is important. Vaping is likely better than smoking but it is not yet clear whether that is the case. It is likely the case based on short term anecdotal data from people who have switched but this does not mean that long term use won’t create more severe lung issues over a period of 20-30 years. We don’t know.
In the meantime for further harm reduction to reduce risk you can vape with low temperatures as this mitigates much of the carcinogen risk, you can use reusable devices and frequently change coils and ensure the coil is saturated, and you can use a liquid that is free of flavorings as these present much of the “unknown” variables.
Or you can work to quit. It is challenging. I smoked and vaped, I know it is tremendously hard. But frankly these companies don’t deserve your money. They’re all fucking scumbags
Woah. This person just straight-up scienced them!
Well said. I smoked a pack a day for 17 years and finally quit a little over a year ago. Lots of people around me quit around the same time but just ended up exchanging the habit for something else like vaping, chewing, or the new fad: nicotine pouches. It made me feel even better to be entirely nicotine free.
For anyone curious, I used nicotine gum from Costco for the first 2 months to help. It tastes like shit and is not enjoyable at all, but I don’t know if I could have done it without.
I think consciously choosing unpleasant methods to get nicotine helped me quit, or at least made quitting a little easier. I understand if you’re making that choice you’re probably well on your way to quitting anyways, but for me it was a good reminder of the goal.
Congrats on quitting. Shit is super hard
To clarify things from my post: I didn’t even touch upon the environmental harm from vaping. If you use disposable vapes you’re kind of a shithead that is wasting a ton of lithium, that is mined by literal slaves, for your 2 day smoking device that you’ll probably not recycle properly. People recycle these batteries to power e bikes and literal homes. Vape shops with racks of these plastic boxes filled with single use 18650 (or similar high discharge) batteries are an environmental disaster
Nicotine pouches and gum lower the lung risk but are another space where long term risk is unknown.
They do irritate the gums and raise the risk of gum disease
Nicotine in general, gum or pouch, negatively impacts brain development and strains the cardiovascular system.
The acidity from the pouches still irritates the airway and oral mucosa and the constant increase of mucus production can lead to chronic bronchitis
The vasoconstriction effect of nicotine means that there is still potential lung involvement due to decreased blood flow even though it is not inhaled
Nicotine in low doses has some effects similar to adderall or methylphenidate but unlike those medications it tends to increase blood pressure and on long timelines create cardiovascular problems even in low doses. additionally it’s far more addictive (though tbf this is possibly/probably due to ease of access) and most users tend to use a fairly substantial amount, 20-40mg for a pack a day smoker, 35mg for someone who burns through a 5% juul pod in a day, etc
The gum is typically used short term and is actually marketed as a cessation device so that’s one thing but the pouches are huge now as you’ve said. It’s somewhat telling that for a minute they were big with the right wing grifter crowd
We don’t know for sure yet.
For example here is a study seemingly published by the department of subdomains and acronyms: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11773639/
RESULTS
We included 39 studies in the main analysis and 12 in the subgroup analysis. Of these, 2 were longitudinal observational studies, 9 were cross-sectional studies, 1 case report and 27 were cell/in vitro and animal studies. All human studies were conducted in adults, and about half of them had a low risk of bias. No significant incident or prevalent risk of lung cancer or other types of cancer was found in the never smoker current vapers population. However, there was substantial biomarker-based evidence of a significant association between e-cigarette exposure and oxidative stress, cellular apoptosis, DNA damage, genotoxicity, and tumor growth, particularly following acute exposure. We did not find any age or sex-based differences in cancer risk, and findings on race and education-based differences were insufficient.
CONCLUSIONS
There is substantial evidence that e-cigarette exposure is associated with biomarkers reflective of cancer disease risk. However, the overall evidence on cancer risk is still limited and should be further investigated by future research, particularly rigorously designed clinical trials and population-based research.
Either way, purposefully inhaling toxic chemicals is pretty stupid.
the department of subdomains and acronyms: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11773639/
Most aptly named department since The Redundant Department of Redundancy
Most aptly named department since The Redundant Department of Redundancy
Can’t believe they came up with that sham when we already had the perfectly adequate Department of Redundancy Department
Luckily, they later discovered the oversight and merged. Only to then split into 16 identical departments.
