Both the president and his reelection campaign are going after his coup-attempting predecessor even before the first GOP primary ballots are cast.
A full year out from the 2024 presidential election and nearly two months before Republicans cast their first primary ballots, President Joe Biden and his campaign are assuming that Donald Trump will be his opponent and have already started reminding voters why they threw him out of office in the first place.
Biden personally has stepped up criticism of his coup-attempting predecessor and is framing the likely rematch as one that will determine the survival of American democracy.
“The same man who said we should terminate the rules and regulations and articles of the Constitution — these are things he said — is now running on a plan to end democracy as we know it,” he said last week at a fundraiser in Chicago.
“This next election is different. It’s more important. There’s more at stake. And we all know why: Because our very democracy is at stake,” he told a San Francisco audience on Wednesday.
In a sane world, the party that has only won a plurality of Presidential voters once since 1988 would try having at least a tiny shred of self-reflection. In this world, they double down on the crazy.
That moment was after Obama’s reelection. The RNC did a big post mortem analysis on the 2012 election and reached the conclusion that they need to appeal to a wider spectrum of voter demographics and stop catering to the more extreme wings of the party. But by that point they had already let the tea party get a foothold and the train was running away towards MAGA with no brakes to be found.
https://www.npr.org/2013/03/18/174665725/rnc-report-a-postmortem-on-failed-2012-election
Tax cuts for the rich running up the deficit. The horribly botched COVID response. And the attempted coup. Not to mention all the other crap. Biden’s right: our democracy is at stake. Check out Trump’s statements and Project 2025. Tuberville is blocking military promotions for a reason, and it ain’t abortion.
It’s so that the military leadership who wouldn’t follow Trump’s unlawful orders will be force retired early, and fascist ideologues can be identified and selectively promoted by the next Republican president.
Sayeth the brocislists: “But Biden Same!”
Wealth inequality increases the same whether Democrats or Republicans are in office.
And minorities and women’s rights disappear entirely if Republicans are in office. There’s a bigger picture here.
Getting tired of this obnoxious centrism that “both are the same!” when they’re clearly not. That being said, Biden is still the lesser of two evils and one that people can still live with.
deleted by creator
Exactly and we have been pushing back against it since 2016. It’s a malignant lie that will be a major contribution to the fall of American democracy.
By what metrics‽ Democratic admins consistently have been responsible for job growth (and good paying jobs too), the launching of redistributive programs, and at the very least protecting welfare programs that america’s poor rely on.
Even the man who tried to neoliberalism the democrats into oblivion, Clinton, still put his back into an honest hard fought attempt to expand medicare and medicaid, if not completely socialize american healthcare.
If you think shit’s equally bad under both parties, you don’t have a point worth considering, you’re just far up enough your own privilege that you can’t see the differences that can be as serious as life and death for everyone else.
The gini index. Clinton is a big reason for this. He passed trade deals like NAFTA that screwed American workers and made wealthy business owners even richer. Republicans tried to get it passed for decades, but only Clinton was able to.
You mean that index that keeps insisting we live the comparative lives of pre revolution french peasantry?
Last I checked I’m not being shaken down by private collectors for a tax because I kept salt from last year I didn’t use.
How does it do that? It’s commonly accepted as the metric for measuring inequality, I’d like to know if there are better metrics, enlighten is.
Wage ratio and PPP
NO, that is not true. If the GOP takes power there will be no more democracy or checks on that growth.
Whether you know it or not you are repeating propaganda designed to suppress Democrat voter turnout.
You can’t say anything you disagree with is propaganda. The comment you replied to is absolutely correct and needs to be repeated loudly for people like you that don’t like facts.
https://www.axios.com/2018/06/05/income-inequality-blue-red-districts
https://www.cato.org/commentary/how-government-creates-wealth-inequality
You can argue that Republicans increase wealth inequality but democrats cause just as much, if not more. The facts just don’t agree with you.
Claims that facts support the statement “wealth inequity increases the same whether Republicans or Democrats are in office”
Posts articles from Koch-connected Axios and Cato, plus a speculative article from Cambridge that amounts to “hey rich people keep trying to keep their money and a lot of them are voting democrat”
Ok cool yep, both parties are definitely the same.
“It’s not propaganda, see!” Posts literal propaganda
Try again, next time with “research” from an organization that isn’t a conservative think tank in nonpartisan foundation’s clothing, or that hasn’t contributed millions of dollars over multiple years to the TPPF.
It literally is true, you just don’t want to research it and would rather form your opinions based on your emotions instead of factual data about where our money goes.
dO YOuR rEsEarCH!
the consequences of the inequality do change by party even if the inequality doesn’t.
Please learn what the concept of rate is.
Go ahead and enlighten us.
deleted by creator
Idk it certainly seems that the top 1% had a great run 2016-2020. Not so much 2008-2016. Great run going up to 2008 though.
Wow this is a shitty graph. What more can you expect from the religious right think tank of Pew Research.
Why the hell are they going in 9 year buckets? Why not standard decades, or president? Or, for that matter, single years and a trend line.
Why does the first bucket start conveniently after Black Monday but still partway through HWs term?
Why does the second bucket soften the blow of post 9/11 slowdowns and the dotcom burst by ranging from the the first half of Clinton’s second term up to just before the 2008 recession? And of course, includes most of the tail end of the dotcom buildup.
Why was this article published in 2020, graph normalized in 2018 dollars, and conveniently stops in 2016?
Do people not think critically about the data they ingest? This what “just asking questions” should be…why, exactly, is this graph so particular? Because it really seems to me that it is deliberately cherry-picking data to show to drive an agenda.
I choose this graph specifically because it disproves his point that the rich did not do well after 2008, which is obviously false. Wealth inequality grew under Obama, it was not some liberal magic that stopped it during that time.
It’s organized that way because it’s a section about the Great Recession.
Here’s another example for you: https://apps.urban.org/features/wealth-inequality-charts/
Oh no, looks like it did get worse.
I didn’t say they didn’t do well after 2008. I said they didn’t do as great as they did in the years prior.
Reading comprehension.
The comment I posted the graph to did, that’s the whole point and it is true wealth inequality grew after 2008.
I honestly can’t imagine Trump winning legit. His biggest strength was that he was an unknown quantity and his opponent was a woman who had to pay off DNC debt to keep popular democrats like Biden from running and beating her for the nomination.
He may have been an unknown quantity to you in 2016, but for his supporters he was exactly what it said on the tin: a racist, angry old white man who yelled at the dinner table about all the things Fox News told him were wrong with this country. And after 4 years of his administration, he actually picked up votes the second time. Biden had the largest turnout in American history in 2020, but only ahead of Trump’s 2020 numbers.
If anything, he has confirmed to the conservative base that he is who he said he was. If Biden fails to motivate his base, he will lose, because Trump is not going to lose votes.
Trump is already lost the moderates. The only one against hillary, because the media made Hillary and Donald look equally as evil and corrupt out of a sense of fairness. The constant punchline that was the Trump Administration has made it so that that’s not going to work a second time.
The fact that he’s not an unknown quantity anymore is his biggest strength just like it took Hitler a couple of tries. His followers don’t care about democracy. In fact they believe it doesn’t actually exist anymore. They would much rather have the ability to attack the people they’re told to hate than to have democracy. If they can lynch Muslims, “Mexicans” (really Hispanic South Americans), people who have abortions, scientists, LGBTQ+ people, “pagans”, and optionally, Jews, black people, and any other non-white Christians.
From what I’ve seen, his actual base of support gets maxed out at 46%, his original victory relied on people that voted for Obama in '08 and '12 to pick him instead of Hilary. I don’t think this people will be dojng that again.
But he can still easily win with 46% or even less at this point. Technically it’s currently possible to win with as little as 23%. And I’m not talking 23% of the US population. 23% of people who actually vote. Less now actually, since that study was done in 2016, and Gerrymandering has gotten worse, shifting more power to fewer people.
All of the gerrymandering lawsuit losses have been overturned by conservative judges and the Supreme Court is corrupt now so there’s little likelihood of them doing the right thing and fixing the maps.
And if that’s not enough, there are several places that have removed polling places from cities and several places have declared that you can’t drop off absentee ballots for someone else, making it difficult for disabled people or people with “essential” jobs to vote, especially when early voting is also illegal. And if your job isn’t “essential”, employers still only have to give you one hour off. Even if you can make it to a polling place in less than half an hour, with the reduced locations in many cities, it’s often more than an hour wait to vote, so you risk losing your job. That’s if your employer even cares about the law because it might be cheaper for them to risk a fine than to let their only employee take an hour off. Not to mention it’s never actually been enforced anyway, so the risk is very low.
We need a mandatory public holiday, free transportation to polling places, and universal mail-in or early voting to be funded for it to actually allow more than a small percentage of citizens to vote, especially in traditionally more progressive places like cities.
At this point the right wing his alienated all but it’s most DieHard fan base, this is about as sustainable for the party, as eating out everyday with the logic that I’ll save by claiming loyalty reward points. Even though I’m throwing money away to claim the free food, when I could just save money by eating what we have at the house and only eating out as a sometimes treat.
I can really see this going either way if Biden stays with his decision to run. I know every year people complain about having two bad choices, but Biden V Trump round 2 has to be a record for the actual worst options possible.
I think the issues with both Biden and Trump are fairly obvious, but another issue is that if Biden does win, there is a fairly good chance we will end up with a president Harris, probably the one person people like less than Biden as a democratic president. I think she lost so much credibility when Biden promised he would pick a black woman as a VP, basically cementing the idea that part of her qualifications for the role of VP was based purely on gender and race.
I don’t think a sitting president will ever die of natural causes. The doctors at Walter Reed are just too good. Look at all the senators that make it to 95 before they start breaking down.
You know they have some classified technology that isn’t available to Common pores that makes presidents live forever. Donald Trump caught covid and they cured that shit right up with experimental treatments. I’m pretty sure that a president can get AIDS and they can cure that over the weekend
He may not die, but I think it’s reasonable to think he will be deemed unfit to serve, or even step down voluntarily.
I would be shocked. Like I said, the medical care these people are getting is on another level entirely.
Our medical care isn’t limitless, there is only so much we can actually do. Look at how Biden has been progressing even with the best care in the world, he clearly isn’t in the best shape and it’s only going to get worse. It’s entirely possible he gets worse fast and for there to be nothing that can be done about it even with the best care we can give him.
I’ve seen him speak a whole bunch and he always comes off as fine to me. I haven’t noticed any changes in the last 4 years.
Deemed unfit to serve requires an untested legal procedure that is going to definitely face challenges and will be unpopular. It would be better for them to pull a Wilson or Reagan.
He promised to pick a woman, not specifically a black woman. That’s why there are still unsubstantiated rumors that he/his team had settled on Klobuchar until George Floyd happened. That would clarify how they got Klobuchar to step out of the race so easily, too. If Biden promised Buttigieg a vague cabinet position, and Amy the VP… the two of them dropping out at just the right time makes complete sense.
Harris “represents” her surface-level demographic, but in her time in Oakland, she rolled back the practices of her predecessor Terence Hallinan, who was possibly the most progressive DA in the country. During his two terms, violent crime dropped by 60%, and he was an outspoken advocate for weed legalization. He said sex work was a public health issue and not a criminal one, and worked to steer as many non-violent cases into diversion/rehab and away from jail time as possible.
All of this, of course, pissed off the cops to no end. So Harris cozied up to the police and big money donors, and ran the now-typical “tough on crime” candidacy… And, well, you can see what has happened to San Francisco between when she was elected in 2003 and now.
I know he initially promised to pick a woman, but I’m pretty sure he changed that to black women, saying he has like 4 to choose from. Either way it’s bad taste to make such an important decision openly based on race and gender.
So we agree that nobody wants Harris as president? And that voting for Biden is how we might just end up with her as president?
If Biden wins and survives to the end of a second term, I think the nomination will be hotly contested.
Kamala Harris, only the far left hates her. The moderate left does not. I’m in the far left and I hate gamala because she is a cop who has a terrible human rights record, and has supported the idea of transgender women being forced into male prisons. For the moderate left, she is a black woman and that’s enough.
I think a lot of the left agree with you, and obviously the right hates her, probably more than Biden. I also feel like the far left has grown a lot lately, the fact that Bernie even won some states in primaries just shows how big the far left has become.
It is quite obvious that America is a country without any safety net, and what little safety net there is, our branded Moochers and takers, whereas any other country would have given them the tools to succeed instead of shaming them for needing a little help.
Let it be based on gender and race. Woman are nearly 52% of the population but the politicians don’t reflect that. African background is about 15% and again the political leadership doesn’t reflect that. It is reasonable to expect that the powers that be won’t be perfectly aligned with the demographics but it isn’t reasonable the levels that we have.
Let it be based on the best person for the job. If that happens to be a black woman then fine, but the race and gender should not be a requirement at all. Saying that you will only choose a black woman is just as racist as sexist as saying you will only choose a white male.
How was best determined?
Most qualified and experienced for the job, regardless of race or gender
Electrolytes are what plants crave.
Question for my American friends out there: any worry about the current clusterfuck in Congress making an end to “Democracy as you know it” seem more palatable than people might realize? Just struck me as a potentially two-edged argument, especially to Republicans who are watching their own party implode.
A big reason why Hitler rose to popular authoritarian power was because the Weimar Republic’s government was deadlocked and ineffective
The US is much larger, the government is much older, and the states have much more power.
Not really because the alternative is controlled by the lunatics that have seeped into our current system and are the worst offenders in ruining it.
Congress actually just did something that feels like it hasn’t happened in a while - they passed a budget bill with bipartisan support, effectively ignoring the right wing nut jobs. Granted it’s only a temporary budget bill, not even for the full year, but the fact that they were able to get both parties aboard to sign it is actually a good sign. The House passed that bill with at least 2/3rds approval.
It’s refreshing to see Congress not being held hostage by a minority wacko subgroup. Hopefully it continues.
I personally don’t see that happening. To make any real drastic changes on the destroying democracy level you would have to throw away the Constitution, and I really don’t see that happening.
We also have a pretty heavily armed society, so with anything that crazy I would expect some fight back from civilians and military against the government, and hopefully that’s enough of a deterrent to not even try.
I am not concerned. We have had much worse in our history. If you want anti-democracy look at literally any time in US history from colonial days to the 1970s. Even now it is a far from perfect system.
I hope the people of the USA will make the right decision. But, looking at it from Belgium, I’m also so tired of, since 2016, looking at every presidential election in the USA as being the one that will possibly sent the world into chaos. Every night-show, podcaster, … that I’m able to watch on YouTube can only discuss the situation from the point of view from one side. This makes the programs that once were very entertaining to watch, much less fun. So since I don’t have any impact on the outcome, I’m skipping many of these shows that were once a nice discraction. I’m curious if in the USA itself the people are also taking distance from this rethoric on television to not let it impact their daily lives too much.
This one is neutral (probably because like you, it’s from outside the country), hopefully you like it: https://youtu.be/BWAcwrn0sf0?si=O2kwJEp_XBqucNT5
deleted by creator
Rise of fascism is a global problem and the fix is hard. It requires education, reading comprehension and even attention. It is such a hard thing to reverse so people in power don’t do anything. Politicians love easy to steer masses.
It also requires people who supposedly know better not to be mewling defeatist worms.
Username checks out…
Too many doomers on Lemmy. :/
deleted by creator
This is the kinda toxic trolling behavior that none of us want in lemmy.
deleted by creator
I think we keep hoping the old will die off and the young will save us.
deleted by creator
Realistically, the way America is going, it’s only a matter of time until it goes full fascist
We’re few decades until 2077…i think Fallout is on to something…
deleted by creator
We do a little less genocide with the Democrat Poggies
Another thread full of fucking retards who have a degree in global politics from the university of tik tok.
Are those the only people allowed to discuss politics in your world? Not the rest of the voters?
What insightful, pointed analysis. I hope you have more pearls of wisdom to share.
We already know that the democrats offer nothing more than being not republicans. Nobody forgot this. We also didn’t forget that Trump was elevated to the office of the president in no small part thanks to Hillary Clinton’s team: https://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/
So yeah, we know that democrats help republicans be villains so that democrats can position themselves as the heroes by comparison.
Edit: Typical. No response addressing democrats actively helping fascists take the stage, only angry downvotes at having to face reality. Spoiler alert: Biden is not going to save you, nor are any of the other democrats.
I’m not angry at all. I downvoted your comment because it’s stupid and your edit is condescending as fuck.
Your stupid reply only indicates that you were angry at being called out. You didn’t respond to how democrats promote fascists to position themselves as heroes because you have no intelligent answer. I’ll be condescending the same way democrats are like “you don’t like Biden? You must be a fascist because that’s your only other choice (that we helped create)!”
same shit said in the last election almost line for line just empty words
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/biden-promise-tracker/?ruling=true
but he is not trump how many times are demopublicans going to try and use this one
when better candidates are clearly available for both demopublican parties has to some other reasoning
Demopublican? Implying the parties are interchangeable? That is a jaw droppingly ridiculous thing to say.
when better candidates are clearly available for both demopublican parties has to some other reasoning
You’re absolutely right, but if it comes down to Biden vs Trump at the general election, who are you going to vote for?
“Hey, I’m not that other guy!”
What a sales pitch. Pathetic, but after the Trump and Biden presidencies, we understand really well why the rich and powerful want geriatrics who can’t form coherent sentences to run our country.
This is a dishonest response. Biden has been very clear that his administration has made great strides in helping the country recover from the economic impacts of COVID, with record low unemployment and bringing down inflation to normal levels. His American Rescue Plan has stimulated the economy while repairing our failing infrastructure and expanding sustainable energy. If you actually listened to his speeches you would know all this, and that he is a fat more coherent speaker than the last two or three Republican presidents.
with record low unemployment and bringing down inflation to normal levels.
Hard to have high unemployment when people need three jobs to survive.
Blame corpo greed. They all saw an opportunity to raise prices without raising wages and we’re all suffering the consequences.
I mean, if a Hitler clone showed up and started running for president, and my only other option was “not Hitler”, that’s pretty much all I need to know.
Yeah, but you’ve just watched three years of ‘Not Hitler’ doing jack shit to stop Hitler Clone, so I don’t really share your optimism or enthusiasm.
In fact, by doing nothing about the rapid acceleration of housing scarcity and the increase in cost of living, Not Hitler has made it much, much easier for Hitler Clone to get elected.
“Not Hitler made it easier for Hitler Clone to get elected, that’s why I’m voting for Hitler Clone!”
Okay then.
There’s two ways out of this situation:
-
A complete denial of Republicans Far Right bullshit until they put up palatable candidates, at which point you can hold Dems accountable without risking full blown fascism.
-
Burn the whole thing down and hope there’s something to recover from the ashes.
I’m not voting for Hitler Clone.
I’m voting third party.
You’re just rationalizing your vote to help usher in fascism, and that’s perfectly fine. I guess it’ll take another 40 years of watching the nation regress before you realize that, maybe, the lesser evil isn’t as lesser as you think it is.
The Dems aren’t great, but I’ll take 40 years of regression over near instant fascism, the end of democracy and a series of genocides against trans people, sexual degenerates, socialists, and the racial minorities that are supposedly polluting white bloodlines in a heartbeat.
Grow the fuck up, and stop risking democracy and lives for the sake of your virtue signalling - the ballot box isn’t the place for activism - you’ve got 1,459 other days per elective cycle for that.
You know what you get if you vote third-party? Fucking murdered by the fascists.
I’m not voting for Hitler Clone.
I’m voting third party.
You’re just rationalizing your vote to help usher in fascism, and that’s perfectly fine. I guess it’ll take another 40 years of watching the nation regress before you realize that, maybe, the lesser evil isn’t as lesser as you think it is.
Ah, the way Hitler Clone got elected the first time! I’m sure the results will be better the 2nd time…
So, you’re saying we could have 40 years in which we could fucking do something like raise awareness, protests, and the like, or we could let Hitler Clone gain power now and hope it burns everything down quickly and we’re able to rebuild from the ashes.
Ah, the way Hitler Clone got elected the first time!
Not at all.
You all were so cocky, arrogant, and self-assured of victory in 2016 that you were making reaction videos the night before as if Hillary had already won.
You didn’t start blaming us until 10:00PM on election night when you realized maybe, just maybe, you should have cared more about workers and the middle class.
And now history is repeating itself. Can’t expect workers to back you if they can’t afford to miss a day of work, which coincidentally, is why I vote third party.
Hahaha, a third party vote in your asinine American two party system is the equivalent of not voting.
Good luck.
That’s actually factually untrue.
If a third party receives a certain percentage of the vote, they qualify for public funding.
My vote serves a purpose even if it doesn’t elect the candidate the wealthy want elected.
That third party bullshit is why Trump was elected in the first place. We’re not in a time or area where we should be putting our votes in a third party. The country and our constitution is in danger, get the vote in for the people who aren’t fascists and then we can work on reforming the voting systems to allow more parties to have an actual shot at offices.
Spoken as someone who felt third party was the way to go in 2016 and deeply regrets allowing bad shit to happen to my country
Fair point, I was being intentionally hyperbolic.
@nexas_XIII is right though. Modern America’s two party system hasn’t shown to be compatible with a third party yet.
Good luck.
-
Who wins against Trump? Newsome? RFK Jr.? Joe Exotic?
If we elect a Democrat or Republican no one in the poor or middle class wins.
Where have you been the last 40 years?
Hell, we elected Joe Biden resoundingly, with a Democratic Congress. What did we get for it? A 30-50% increase in cost of living (depending on where you live), the loss of Roe vs Wade, and record war spending. And he didn’t do anything meaningful to stop fascism.
You have so many things wrong in your comment.
Biden’s Congress and agenda rested on a thin margin in the Senate, with people like Manchin and Sinema voting against important pieces. What he can do unilaterally, he did, but he can’t do that for everything. Then Republicans took the House.
Biden didn’t cause private, for profit corporations to raise their prices, the corporations chose to do that because they knew they could. They could have simply made a little less money, but they chose to pass any increase in global supply chain costs off to the consumers. Not to mention that inflation around the world is much worse than it is here. But I suppose you’d never give Biden credit for that, huh?
Roe v Wade was overturned by a Supreme Court controlled by right wing judges that were appointed by presidents other than Biden. Three of them were appointed by Trump. Again, Biden can’t act unilaterally to undo that or to pass abortion protections, and Manchin proved that he wasn’t going to be any help. So wtf do you even want Biden to do?
And with your point on fascism, again, what the hell do you want him to do? Trump is on trial four different ways in multiple jurisdictions. The fact that it’s been slow going is a consequence of our legal system and Trump’s resources to be able to abuse it. The wheels is justice turn slowly, and that’s Biden’s fault?
You sound like someone who doesn’t know how the government and judicial system works, and is woefully ignorant of the nuts and bolts of policy. You seem genuinely upset that Biden hasn’t magically fixed every problem in 2.5 years, and you’re holding it against him for some reason. That wouldn’t be an issue, except people like you, who are going to cross your arms and pout come next November are going to allow Trump to be reelected.
And trust me when I say that he will do active harm to the things you care about. Don’t risk it.
I voted for Biden because I wanted to stop fascism and world war, now Israel is doing genocide and bombing its neighbors with Biden’s tacit support.
And we must hold Biden responsible.
But are you suggesting that Trump would approach Israel any differently? The US response is deeply rooted in morally evil international interests, I don’t think any president could respond much differently without severe internal consequences to themselves. It would be the right thing to do, though it would be political suicide thanks to said evil interests.
What makes you think Biden is responsible for Israel’s actions? If my brother or my neighbour does something to harm someone and the results of this harm come to my awareness, explain without emotion, using logic, how and why should I be held responsible for the results of his actions, and where do we draw the line?
If I don’t know why something has happened and I go out and ask why, and people blame me simply for simply asking the very question, who is responsible?
Clearly, the person who looks to blame the person asking the question must have a dogma, they must have a reason, it’s very reasonable to believe they must have a stake in the question not being asked which obviously means that they could know who is responsible.
Because he gives israel bombs to kill children and women with and sends 2 aircraft carriers and a nuke sub to prevent other nations from defending the Palestinians.
Let’s not confuse freedom with purposeful proposition
And we must hold Biden responsible.
I think in place of this, you mean Biden should be held accountable, but you have no intention or expectation of it actually happening. Reelection is definitely the opposite of that. And like Bush transitioning to Obama, I doubt you’ll be calling for any retroactive accountability once Biden has left office after reelection.
Then your assumptions are incorrect.
I would prefer not to re-elect Biden. I however am not in control of the Democratic Party, and so the best I can do is vote in elections leading up to the national election. When the day comes next year for a national election, it will be Biden VS. Whomever the republicans pick. Those are my two choices, whether I like it or not.
I am already politically active in demanding Biden be held accountable. I am still active in demanding Bush be held accountable for war crimes. I will still remain active in the future to ensure Biden answers for them as well.
As a law abiding citizen, I am protesting and voting. So do you suggest I commit violence instead? That is the only next step, seeing as I am not in control of who the Democrat party elects.
that sounds about what my assumptions were. A desire for accountability, yet you’ll be voting for him and he won’t be facing any sort of accountability.
I’m trying to conduct some conversation here. You haven’t responded to my inquires and fail to show any motivation beyond disparaging the US. If you’d like to actually care and be a part of the solution, I’ll be waiting over here.
The barest minimum for holding a politician accountable is not reelecting them.
You may not be from the US, so I will forgive your ignorance on how politics work here.
Long story short, whether you or I like it or not, it will most likely be Trump vs. Biden.
Here in the US, we citizens have severely limited power in suggesting who the political parties run for national elections.
What this all boils down to is that I get to choose between Trump or Biden. I could choose not to vote, but then my voice is heard even less.
I should choose to protest and demand better action by my policy makers and representatives. But I already do that, and I made that very clear to you.
So again, what do you suggest? I’m over here actively trying to cause change for the better, and all you have to say is “Haha typical, won’t do anything”. Are you just trolling?
History suggests the exact opposite.
Consider healthcare and Obamacare. What happened when people unhappy with Obamacare not going far enough didn’t vote in 2010? The US swung rightward and the far right grew in power. The only thing that happened with healthcare was the constant Republican attempts to repeal it, and they were almost successful. We almost saw regression on the issue, not improvement.
Think about this another way – if reelection is a vindication to the politics and means their voters see no need to hold them accountable, what happens if a Republican wins? They’ll see their positions as justified and be emboldened. The country will seem to favor conservatism, so Democrats will go the opposite direction and become more moderate. A Republican victory isn’t seen as Democrats needing to be more left and a Democrat victory isn’t seen as Republicans being to be more right. It’s the complete opposite.
The problem is that you’re forgetting this is a zero sum game. If you hold the Democrat accountable, you let the Republican slide. If you hold the Republican accountable, you let the Democrat slide. If you want to hold both accountable and just not vote, you’re letting the candidate at an advantage slide and holding the underdog accountable. There’s no good option. If you want to actually hold both of them accountable, you have to vote FOR the one that’s closer the direction you want to go, and then use your vote as leverage. Politicians listen a lot more to their voters than go non voters. Young people are putting real pressure on Biden because they previously voted for him.
I’m suggesting that the machine operates the same no matter who pulls its levers, for exactly the reasons you listed.
That said? I don’t think as many Democrats would be reluctant to endorse a ceasefire under Trump. That matters.
It doesn’t though. I disagree with Biden but he’s not actively trying to take away my rights. Its a lesser of two evils situation, and acting like its not is either naive or malicious.
I want ranked choice voting so it isnt always this lesser of two evils bullshit, but that’s not the reality.
If you don’t vote biden, that’s your choice, but that isn’t some brave silent protest. That’s giving up. What are you doing to change things? Right now. I voted in my local elections just recently. We lost every vote, but I did it anyways. I’ll be voting in any primaries I can, and for any election I’m able. When I’m financially able I’ll be donating to candidates who I personally support.
Unless you want a full on revolution, work around the bullshit system we have to make it better. Realistically, I don’t think there is the public will for a real revolution.
This is harsh and I mean it to be. If you don’t vote you are doing nothing. If you aren’t campaigning or helping somebody else do so, you’re doing nothing. If you are simply whining on the Internet about how both candidates are shit and you give up, then you’ve given up. Don’t pull this “enlightened” both sides are equally shit idiocy. Its simply not true.
If you honestly think that the only way to change is revolution, then plan one. Nobody wants to hear you shout to the void that you won’t be participating in the bare minimum of directing a democracy/republic.
It doesn’t though. I disagree with Biden but he’s not actively trying to take away my rights.
You’re fine with Biden supporting a genocide in Gaza as long as it doesn’t personally effect you, is that right?
Nobody wants to hear you shout to the void that you won’t be participating in the bare minimum of directing a democracy/republic.
This is an internet comment section. We’re all shouting to the void, nothing anyone says here matters. This is all just for fun.
I never said I supported the shit in Gaza. I don’t. I want a ceasefire. I want a free and independent Palestine. What, realistically, do you want me to do to make that happen? Voting for Trump won’t help. Voting third party won’t help. Not voting won’t help. Enlighten me.
Or is this more “if you haven’t given up too you must be complicit” bullshit? What have you done? I’ll continue to do what I can to make a positive change, despite the lack of power I personally have. I’d encourage you to do the same, to pick up whatever hypothetical twig you have laying around and swing it, rather than putting down others for doing what they can, in the fucked up situation we are in. Citizens have political power as a collective, not individuals, and if you back out of that collective you’re just giving up what power you do have.
If you vote for Biden you are voting for genocide. Fact.
Our votes are our only leverage over Biden. If the Biden team cares at all about winning reelection then Biden will reconsider his unlimited support for Israel, and if he does I will 100% vote for him. Until then? No ceasefire, no votes.
Also I haven’t given up? Hell, I’m still voting downticket for Democrats! But I will not vote for genocide. That’s my red line. I can not compromise myself that far, I’d literally rather die (and because I’m a trans commie, Trump might actually fucking kill me so yeah)
Trump will be just as bad, if not worse. He regularly praises dictators for their human rights abuses and wants to reimplement a travel ban from many middle eastern countries, and has stated he doesn’t want any refugees to come from those areas, I believe specifically including Gaza.
I understand the decision you’ve made, but I disagree. I still feel that biden v trump means I vote biden, because trump is both worse for the US, and worse for the people suffering in Palestine. I hope Biden changes his stance and actually calls for a ceasefire, and I will continue to let my representatives know this.
You do what you gotta do, but I’ll never support Trump, through direct action, or inaction.
I’m a little more torn over this than others… On one hand, this is the appropriate messaging to force Democrats to actually represent the interests of their electorate, the thing they’re specifically elected to do. The phone lines of these politicians should be going off 24 hours a day with callers telling them they will never even consider voting for them again unless they show an appropriate level of change, remorse, and action to stop this. Biden should be receiving that 10x over. Additionally, there are groups of people I will never criticize for refusing to vote - should the white lefty criticize the Muslim for refusing to vote for a leader that does not value the lives of Muslims? Should they criticize the Jew for refusing to vote for a leader who commits genocide in their name?
…and on the other hand, as a queer person who follows politics, I still feel any public refusal to vote Biden on my part must be a bluff. There’s too much at stake for me to justify going through with it privately… there’s my trans life, yes, but then there’s also the lives of my trans and generally queer friends, the freedoms of the women in my life, the lives and freedoms of those groups on the national scale, the ability for anyone to vote at all down the line - privately refusing to vote blue for the presidency would not feel like solidarity (partly because it would make the situation I’m refusing to vote over worse, and also potentially make life in the US for Jews and Muslims worse, as Republicans and Trump specifically have enacted things like explicit travel bans before). It would not feel like praxis to virtue signal my refusal to be complicit in one genocide only to be complicit in the all-to-possible ellimination of democracy at home and a subsequent net increase in genocide and funding for it around the world. Voting for Genocide Joe is not cool or satisfying or even right - it’s just the least bad… and honestly for what its worth, the least bad has never looked worse in my life.
What’s your hexbear username?
Why would I bother?
Best to go work on ranked choice voting, campaign finance reform etc.
Kill Citizens United. Kill the 2 party system.
Yup. I agree, but don’t word it so nicely.
So exactly one issue is the breaking point for you? All the fascism and Nazism that Trump spouts is tolerable?
Genocide is the breaking point for me. I voted for Biden to stop fascism and I got a genocide. I will not vote for genocide again.
Why aren’t you mad at Biden for ruining his own election chances by supporting genocide? Why attack us for opposing genocide?
This genocide has been going on for decades. If it wasn’t a breaking point in '20, why is it a breaking point now?
For fuck’s sake. Swear to fucking god, I can’t tell the difference between the tankies who are disingenuously using this incident in the ongoing genocide to push a “TRUMP NOT SO BAD” narrative, and those who, like most Americans, learned about the existence one of the biggest issues in international politics just last fucking month.
This is worse than it’s ever been in my entire life, surely you realize that?
It’s more prominent. It’s more visible. It catches the attention of those who don’t usually pay attention to international politics. But I don’t know why you weren’t concerned when they were shooting up hospitals full of wounded and shelling children with naval artillery, but are now that it’s proper flashy.
It was genocide. It has been genocide. It will likely continue to be genocide once the current operation finishes. And there’s zero chance that it will stop as long as Bibi’s government is in power.
Nobody voted for a genocide. I certainly doubt that anyone in the USA let alone Biden would endorse genocide.
There are not a small number of people in the US that support a genocide. It was a more popular slogan a couple years ago, but there are quite a few right wingers that would say the phrase ‘six million wasn’t enough’ meaning we need a new holocaust. There are numerous groups with dozens to hundreds of members in the US that support that ideology. If you haven’t heard of the Turner Diaries, it’s a book that advocates a day of white supremacist mass murder of leftists and less ‘racially pure’ people, (referred to as the ‘day of the rope’) it has been popular for decades and is seen as a guide for neo-Nazis.
So now that Biden admin brokered a ceasefire and hostage exchange in the Palestine Israel conflict, is he still genocidal or?
That’s not a ceasefire, it’s a 5 day pause. The genocide starts back up next week.
But this is a good start! This was exactly my intent of threatening to withhold my vote and why it’s important to apply pressure to Biden - he knows he needs us to get reelected and so he’s working to make sure we have a reason to vote for him again.
Keep the pressure up until there’s a ceasefire. No ceasefire, no votes. I just want this one thing. He’s let me down over and over on so many different issues, but if he can give us this one fucking thing I will vote for him. Is that so wrong?
It doesn’t the same, that’s a fallacy spread by short-sighted people who only ever want immediate fixes for complicated problems. There’s definitely a lot of similarities in fiscal policy, but on social policy they couldn’t be further apart.
Just because neither fit your perfect ideal doesn’t mean they’re exactly the same and it doesn’t matter who you vote for.
Opposing genocide isn’t idealism! What the fuck?
I disagree with Biden on a ton of issues! I hated it when he broke the railroad strike, I hated it when he let the likes of Manchin whittle down all of his social agenda, I hated it when he let Texas put razor wire in the Rio, but I can compromise. I get it, he’s not a leftist and he’s not willing to rock the boat and he’s trying to appeal to conservative swing voters. But this is the one issue I just can’t.
This.
Here is the key historical difference between Republicans and Democrats.
Republicans vote red no matter what. Democrats vote conscientiously.
I can’t stand a Democrat having a fervent mindset that they must vote blue no matter what because they are afraid of a Republican. That is what Republicans do.
You CAN NOT stop something by becoming it.
I feel like there is this perception going around that if Trump gets back in, everything else disappears immediately. Its akin to when Obama won and a disturbingly massive group of people were like “welp, that does it. Racism is over.”
If Trump gets back in, he still has incompetent Republican legislators who have their full attention on infighting, The entire judiciary system is going to be just as split over what to do with him, but there will no longer be any ability to claim ignorance if they choose to become complicit with him. Democrat legislators and judges won’t just disappear like The Snap from Endgame. He will also be limited to 4 years in office since he already basically flushed his first 4. He can try to overthrow the 2028 election, again, but we will all be ready for it this time.
I fucking hate Trump. His tweets are super annoying. Democrats don’t vote for genocide. Period.
We can stop Trump by holding Biden accountable and kicking his sorry ass to the curb. The DNC isn’t going to do that though. He has done too good a job making it illegal for unions to strike, cozying up to Xi Jinping (actively saying that Xi Jinping is still very much a dictator and is still actively putting his effort into cozying up with him), and, oh ya, GENOCIDE.
The DNC has 352 days to choose someone, anyone, other than Biden to send into the 2024 election. As long as they aren’t on record calling for genocide, they will sail past Trump to the oval office.
If they do not listen, Democrats lose and that is 100% the DNC/Biden’s fault (the exact same as how it was the DNC/Hilary’s fault for rigging the DNC and not allowing Bernie to beat Trump the first time).
If the Democratic party decides to continue to be what it has become under the leadership of Hilary and Biden, then fuck em. Fuck the whole damn thing.
Biden literally walked the UAW picket line you fucking house plant lol
People like you existed in 2016 when they pouted and complained that Hillary Clinton was a war criminal and that if the DNC yadda yaddas her past Bernie then America deserves what Trump will bring! And then what happened?
Trump got elected, appointed hundreds of right wing judges, including 3 of the Supreme Court judges that overturned Roe v Wade, and lit a tank of gasoline of lunatics on fire who want to turn America into a real life Handmaid’s Tale.
YOU’RE JUST DOING THE SAME EXACT THING
Don’t let perfect be the enemy of the good. Too many people are going to get hurt in very real ways if Trump gets elected. He will do every bad thing you think Biden is doing.
Legislation has been passed setting legal precident to encarcerate a man for not working his slave assignment, but captain “every photo of me looks like it was snapped 2 seconds after they slipped the pureed peas in my mouth” took a photo op before he laid down that LAW.
But, so I’m told, he made sure they got (metaphorical) gift baskets for it.
Fuck off you simple minded boot licking plonker.
I have no interest in sharing a party with you.
You are speaking literal gibberish and deserve the kind of government you’re ignorance will empower. It just sucks that so many other people will have to suffer because of your garbage, short sighted choices.
Suuuure, buddy. Because the alternative would be SO much better. Have you forgotten the many, many times Trump explicity showed support for Netanhayu?
Have you forgotten how much Democrats hate Trump?
Under Biden, Democrats are all lining up to support Israel’s genocide in Gaza. Even Bernie refuses to endorse a ceasefire.
Under Trump that would be drastically different. I bet more than half of Democrats would have the courage to condemn Israel.
Under Trump that would be drastically different
Care to explain further? Because his entire term during presidency says otherwise.
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/100-times-president-trump-supported-israel/
And if you want further counterexamples, I can pull up all the times Republicans sided with Russia as they waged war on Ukraine.
Care to explain further? Because his entire term during presidency says otherwise.
Do you remember when Democrats opposed Trump moving the embassy to Jerusalem?
I’m not saying Trump wouldn’t support Israel. He absolutely would! But Democrats would react to this by becoming less supportive of Israel.
At the very least politicians like Bernie would have the courage to call for a ceasefire.
I remember when Trump became president and suddenly Republicans were strongly in support of bombing Syria but Democrat opinion stayed roughly where it was. So, basically your entire premise is flawed.
Maybe. Either way, I will not vote for genocide.
In a two-party system, not voting is a vote for the eventual winner. So you’re still voting for genocide.
But this time it’ll be with Trump, and so without calls for a ‘humanitarian pause’ (which is a call for a ceasefire in terms that save face for Bibi’s government, which has clearly signaled that it will not consider a ceasefire). Instead, rather, it’d probably be accompanied by horrendously racist rhetoric encouraging the rise in domestic Islamophobic attacks. I wouldn’t be surprised if US jets were running sorties on Palestinian hospitals if this happened under a Trump presidency.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
“It’ll be better under Trump!”
… I’m seriously starting to think some of these lemmy.ml and hexbear “communist” are MAGAts cosplaying Marxists.
They’re similar in that they have horrendously naive and simplistic views of the world. Mirror images.
I didn’t say it would be better, I said Democrats would have better political positions.
Do you think Bernie would refuse to endorse a ceasefire under Trump?
Do you think Bernie would refuse to endorse a ceasefire under Trump?
Yes, probably. Considering that it comes on the heels of an attack that killed a thousand Israeli civilians, and Bibi has made it clear that a ceasefire is not going to happen?
“Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable - the art of the second best.”
A failure of imagination.
You keep living in your land of imagination, then, where everything will get better once it gets worse, like some kind of pendulum. Those of us who understand that we aren’t living in a fairy-tale world will continue to actually work to stop fascism.
deleted by creator
So instead you’ll either do nothing to stop- or even worse, actively vote for the guy who thinks we aren’t doing enough to support genocide? The guy whose party is actively trying to expel Palestinians from the US? The guy who has openly promised to bring about full force fascism and end democracy?
Cool cool cool
imagine having more than 2 choices
Not how the US Constitution is written, want better choices, vote in the primaries, or push for your state to implement a Ranked Choice Vote. Otherwise you only get two choices on the second Tuesday in November, A or B.
Or, accept that constitutions can be changed, and even replaced. It’s happening in countries right now, actually. Our constitution is out of date, and inherently reflects the white supremacist Eurocentric view of its writers. It’s far past time to retire it and replace it with one that enshrines Justice for all, including environmental Justice.
I agree with you. This is a progressive ideal. The way to get there is to vote for the most progressive candidates that can actually win and deliver them the Congress and Senate multiple terms so that we cannot be held back by regressives.
See you at the polls!
What avenue is in place for replacing the constitution through the current system? As far as I am aware, there isn’t one, and it will have to be done outside of the system through direct action forcing change. In the streets, not in the ballot boxes.
“The founders also specified a process by which the Constitution may be amended, and since its ratification, the Constitution has been amended 27 times. In order to prevent arbitrary changes, the process for making amendments is quite onerous. An amendment may be proposed by a two-thirds vote of both Houses of Congress, or, if two-thirds of the States request one, by a convention called for that purpose. The amendment must then be ratified by three-fourths of the State legislatures, or three-fourths of conventions called in each State for ratification.” - Whitehouse.gov
This is the way.
skill issue
That would be nice. But we need to live our lives in reality.
It’s been shown using decades of analysis that voting for the lesser evil ALWAYS moves you to the right. We will not vote our way out of this. If Biden gets into office again, he will fulfill his purpose as the political ratchet, preventing leftward movement. Just as he has done now, with his refusal to pick postal governors who will get rid of the definitively election tampering DeJoy. Just as he’s done with his record police funding. Just as he’s done with his ceaseless support of genocide in Palestine. Just as he’s done with his action preventing rail workers from ever again having the right to strike( and don’t hit me with that, they got 4 days of sick time, that’s totally a victory, because it’s not.). Just as he’s done with his refusal to even make a statement on cop city. Just like he’s doing by directing his DOJ to suppress pro-Palestinian protestors in universities and cities.
If you want change, stop acquiescing to their system, and demand it. Change happens in the streets, not the ballot boxes. Vote for harm reduction, I will, but make no illusions about it, you are not in any way making things better, that work is done not by voting, but by acting collectively.
I quickly scanned over this after I saw the words “Decades of analysis.” [Citation needed.]
I will not be reading the rest unless I see a citation for this authoritative abstract you’ve written.
Do you have a researchgate or JSTOR account? It’s not gonna do any good to link you if you can’t read it, because in th is society academic information is locked behind paywalls unfortunately.
Forgive me if I’m not willing to accept an authoritative statement based on data without access to the data. But I’m not willing to take that leap.
The problem, as I see it, is we live in a flawed democracy and the path to change by definition lies with getting the most progressive candidates possible in office unimpeded by regressives. It’s the only reasonable way to get change. It will be slow, it will not always be exciting. But in the meantime, I have to put food on the table and manage my life, so taking to the streets is not a reasonable long term solution for me.
I’ll continue donating to progressive causes, voting, and arguing online. It’s the bandwidth I can spare.
I suspect we agree more than we disagree and our differences are a matter of degrees.
Ain’t that the dream
Think Trump would have had a better response?
No. Lose/lose situation no matter who wins.
But! Do you think Democrats would support Israel’s genocide if Trump was president? I doubt it.
But! Do you think Democrats would support Israel’s genocide if Trump was president? I doubt it.
What the fuck do you think the Dems have been doing since the 80s? Through every Republican presidency?
I think Dems opposed Trump moving the embassy to Jerusalem.
Yes, and so were the GOP before Trump. That’s not a “Well, the Dems decided to oppose the move because it was a Republican president!” moment, it’s a “The Dems are the conservative party and the GOP is the fascist party” moment.
That’s why the best move is for Democrats to control the House and Senate, and that’s why I’m voting down ticket for Democrats.
I don’t care about why Democrats oppose Trump, I just know that they will. Or do you think that Bernie Sanders would refuse to call for a ceasefire if Trump was President, like what he’s doing right now under Biden?
I don’t care about why Democrats oppose Trump, I just know that they will.
“This is the history of the matter. That’s literally not how it works, and you’re confusing the opposition of one policy with some idea of complete contrarianism that flies in the face of how the Democratic Party has operated, not only over the past 30 years in general, but also under Trump in particular.”
“I don’t know WHY they’ll do it, but they WILL”
Okay, buddy, have fun with that.
Would it be any different if it was any other president? Put differently, is it Biden supporting genocide, or America?
Which, don’t get me wrong. Fuck Biden, America whoever for doing nothing about it. My question is the validity of punishing Biden, by saying I won’t vote for him, il vote for x, as if x would have done it any differently. The only benefit x has is he wasn’t in charge while happening. So being punitive vs Biden is pointless.
Agreed
Most Americans support a ceasefire, so it’s not really “America” either. It’s the ruling class.
But Biden has a lot of power all on his own. We can’t ignore that.
Don’t forget that Democrats for the most part have to listen to their voters or risk their jobs. Republicans don’t have to listen to anyone because Republican voters would literally vote for Hitler if he had an R next to his name. There’s been a slow trickle of headlines about Biden changing his tune on Israel as slow as a geriatric can go because of the immense outrage.
Biden is president of the US, not the world. He has little more ability to stop the latest flare up of that decades long conflict than does Trudeau or any other nation’s leader.
What do you expect him to do about it that he isn’t already doing?
e: more to the point, what do you think Trump would do that would have any real effect?
Stopping aid to Israel would be a start. Sanctions would be good. Getting the world community together to force Israel to stop if they don’t would be great.
Talk to Congress about that.
Biden has been working the diplomacy angle, but diplomacy is like herding cats.
The US president is not a dictator, and should not be. If you want actual progress, stop electing frauds, criminals, and children to Congress.
Israel is wholly dependent on the US to be able to act with impunity in the region.
If Biden said “no ceasefire, no warships” and threatened to pull out of the Gulf and not defend Israel you bet your ass Israel would fall in line.
Hard disagree.
If it were that easy, why hasn’t the US put this to bed over the many decades this situation has been going on in that region?
If your solution can be stated in one sentence, I promise it’s too myopic to work. The situation there is massively complex, and every easy solution has been tried at least once.
They’re talking about a ceasefire while you’re talking about longterm peace in the region. You’re not even arguing about the same thing.
Because the US supports the genocide.
The US hasn’t put this to bed because it needs Israel to maintain its global empire, so Israel is allowed to do whatever it wants as long as it serves US interests. Israel is the US’s unsinkable aircraft carrier in the middle east. Israel is a keystone of power projection and regional influence. Israel is the laboratory for surveillance tech, drone tech, boarder tech, occupation tech, and policing tech. Israel is America’s most precious and most important ally, probably in the entire world. As Biden said, if Israel didn’t exist the US would have to make it.
Biden supports the US empire so he isn’t going to cut Israel off, same as every single president before him.
But that doesn’t mean I’m wrong, and honestly, just proves that the US empire needs to be dismantled.
Fuck off, tankie
I didn’t think 13 year olds were allowed to vote.
They don’t actually want Trump behind bars.
They want to hang a possible second Trump Presidency over us like the sword of Damocles.
This way every future election is “the most important election in US history.”
This way they can always do bare minimum and still be “better” than the Republicans offering hate and authoritarianism.
No I don’t think of it as the sword of Damocles so much as, look here’s this guy that will do anything you want but will go to extreme lengths to get it done, in ways that may go against your original values, now maybe you should consider having a plan as much as you think about being results oriented
Also this way, when they lose, they can blame us for not voting harder. It’s a really good propaganda trick.
If you don’t vote for Biden and he loses, you’re in part to blame, aren’t you?
That’s like saying “if you hadn’t burned dinner, your husband wouldn’t have had a reason to beat you.”
Absolutely disgusting viewpoint.
Are you really comparing Biden winning the election to a man beating his wife?
No, I’m comparing your argument to the justifications of a wife beater.
Go home Shepard your drunk
That’s incredibly silly.
Except that elections are math. Your husband ostensibly has the ability to control himself if he chooses. If the people don’t vote for Biden and Biden exercises control over the process so that he wins anyway, that’s treason.
No, Biden is to blame for ignoring the extremely loud demands from the Dem base for a ceasefire. No ceasefire, no votes.
Also? This is why liberals will support Trump when he restarts the Muslim bans. “They let Trump win! It’ll serve them right.” 🙄
I’m pretty sure whoever loses an election can rightfully blame the people who didn’t vote for them. That’s sort of how elections work.
I will rightfully blame Biden for being a bad candidate and blame the Democratic Party for forcing Biden down our throats and making voters choose between Trump and Biden. That’s also how elections work.
Okay? But that still means that he can’t rightfully blame you for not voting for him if he loses. Despite what you said.
